Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby PhilWalter on Mon 5/Apr/10 4:54pm

As an Auckland ratepayer I would like to be able to legally ride my MTB in the Waitaks
I put in a submission to the council several years ago as did many other MTB'ers to try and gain access only to see it voted out by a small minority
Rotorua, Wellington, Queenstown, Dunedin etc etc all make it work, why can't Auckland ?
I believe the Auckland Council are re-active rather than pro-active

So would a publicised protest ride be a way of making our case heard, and possibly make the Council take notice ? Now could be the perfect time to strike with the Super City thing on the cusp.....

There will be those for and against.......discuss.
PhilWalter
Member for: 9 years 6 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby trancemaster on Mon 5/Apr/10 5:13pm

No. really stupid idea. do your homework first. you need to read the recent report on Submissions on the Parks Mgt Plan , which covers the new areas where Mt biking will go in all the parks including 3 new ones. other than that the waitakeres are not at all suited to mt biking - goat tracks, rain, mud, kauri dieback disease. go to the hunuas they are in perfect condition now.
trancemaster
Member for: 5 years 9 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby PhilWalter on Mon 5/Apr/10 5:23pm

This thread is the homework to a certain extent - I'm not saying 'do it' - just interested on opinions for and against.

Though IMO the Waitaks are perfectly suited to MTB'ing - rain, goat tracks, mud, roots, rocks, elevation etc etc all = a great ride :)

Must check out the Hunuas though.
PhilWalter
Member for: 9 years 6 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby Giantman on Mon 5/Apr/10 5:44pm

righto mr trancemaster, where do we find this information.
Giantman
Member for: 8 years 8 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby FLATULENTFRIEND on Mon 5/Apr/10 6:06pm

If one lives near the Waitaks (as I do, although I never MTB – what am I doing here?) then going to the Hunuas is a long way

Waitakere council is pretty pro bike (not sure about MTBing) so it’s not about that.

As much as I’ve read about the Ranges (and walked many tracks) trancemaster is right – it’s just not a good place for riding and the tracks that are there will be ruined fast :(
FLATULENTFRIEND
User avatar
"I'm a Sponsored rider; My Wife Pays me to get out of the house!"
Member for: 5 years 9 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby Giantman on Mon 5/Apr/10 6:32pm

proveto me that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers.
Giantman
Member for: 8 years 8 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby Ryan on Mon 5/Apr/10 6:44pm

Giantman wrote:proveto me that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers.



Thats a pretty simple thing to prove, skids and riding in the rain all do damage.
Riding existing tracks is not a good idea but it's pretty easy to cut in new trails for MTB.

There are quite a few trails builders that will lend their time for free as you know :)
Ryan
Member for: 10 years 2 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby Giantman on Mon 5/Apr/10 6:47pm

i have built tracks on clay that require less work over 2 years then a walking track, waitaks is a rock base which doesnt chop up even after riding in the pissing rain last winter
Last edited by Giantman on Mon 5/Apr/10 7:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giantman
Member for: 8 years 8 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby fatwombat on Mon 5/Apr/10 6:59pm

Giantman wrote:proveto me that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers.


Walk along some MTB routes that haven't been made sustainable with gravel or plastic mesh with your eyes open. Better still, join a bike park supporters' group and spend a few months doing track maintenance and it will become very clear.

I love MTBing, I like gnarly technical bush riding, I'd like to see as many tracks as possible open for MTBs, but I can't imagine what you're thinking to suggest that bikes don't do more damage than feet. Feet make separate isolated marks so it is very unusual for walkers to all step in exactly the same place; bikes make a continuous groove which becomes a line for subsequent riders to follow. That means that, even on flat tracks, bikes are going to wear a groove in a way that walkers wouldn't.

Once you get onto slopes the relative performance of bikes against walkers is even worse: going uphill, back wheels spin and make little gouges; descending, the way most youngsters and beginners ride is to go as fast as possible and lock up the back wheel around the corners. But even careful descenders are likely to get some slide.

These grooves and gouges can amount to a significant amount of track damage by themselves. On a surface that hasn't been designed for riding, they will also become runoff channels for rainwater, and this leads to serious erosion damage in a relatively short time.

I hope this gives you a starting point to rethink your perspective. I also hope you can convince the council to open up tracks for MTBing, even if that means user group has to be set up to fund preliminary upgrading of track surfaces. Just don't tell them to "prove that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers", or the project will never get off the ground.
fatwombat
User avatar
"Our planet is the mental institution of the universe. - Goethe"
Member for: 4 years 10 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby phunk on Mon 5/Apr/10 7:56pm

To be honest, I wouldnt want the Waitaks open to mtbs as then they would just remodel/build horribly boring sustainable tracks like they do everywhere else - like Makara.

Keep the punters out, burgle as required.
phunk
User avatar
Member for: 10 years 5 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby thelongwalk on Mon 5/Apr/10 8:22pm

fatwombat wrote:
Giantman wrote:proveto me that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers.


Walk along some MTB routes that haven't been made sustainable with gravel or plastic mesh with your eyes open. Better still, join a bike park supporters' group and spend a few months doing track maintenance and it will become very clear.

I love MTBing, I like gnarly technical bush riding, I'd like to see as many tracks as possible open for MTBs, but I can't imagine what you're thinking to suggest that bikes don't do more damage than feet. Feet make separate isolated marks so it is very unusual for walkers to all step in exactly the same place; bikes make a continuous groove which becomes a line for subsequent riders to follow. That means that, even on flat tracks, bikes are going to wear a groove in a way that walkers wouldn't.

Once you get onto slopes the relative performance of bikes against walkers is even worse: going uphill, back wheels spin and make little gouges; descending, the way most youngsters and beginners ride is to go as fast as possible and lock up the back wheel around the corners. But even careful descenders are likely to get some slide.



These grooves and gouges can amount to a significant amount of track damage by themselves. On a surface that hasn't been designed for riding, they will also become runoff channels for rainwater, and this leads to serious erosion damage in a relatively short time.

I hope this gives you a starting point to rethink your perspective. I also hope you can convince the council to open up tracks for MTBing, even if that means user group has to be set up to fund preliminary upgrading of track surfaces. Just don't tell them to "prove that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers", or the project will never get off the ground.


a lot of conjecture without much fact there fatw
below is a link to the IMBA guys with an oldish summary (2004) of research into track erosion by users - in summary mtb do not erode quicker than other users -though this is from the states

[url]
http://www.imba.com/resources/science/i ... mmary.html[/url]
thelongwalk
User avatar
Member for: 5 years 5 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby j2hyde on Mon 5/Apr/10 9:01pm

fatwombat wrote: ....a lot of words.....


Cool story bro
j2hyde
User avatar
"I'm not for that. I'm for the ladies."
Member for: 8 years 10 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby trancemaster on Tue 6/Apr/10 10:38am

Bikers charging into waitakeres will piss off a lot of work to date with the Rangers, Planners and Councillors.

if you do it, do it smart, do in on dry tracks well out of popular hours, like at night and leave no trace nor tread.

here is the ARC latest summary of submissions :
just go to arc.govt and search 'rpmp'
or
http://www.arc.govt.nz/albany/fms/main/ ... -%2014.pdf

Join AMBC and get into trail building , also see summary for ARC news & trail updates at http://aucklandmtb.co.nz/

also
The following areas have been identified by local councils as 'future' locations for mountain biking:
 Rodney District: Green Road, Dairy Flat (154 hectares)
 North Shore City:
o Sanders Reserve2 (41 hectares at Paremoremo; beginners (7.9 hectares) and intermediate (11.8 hectares) trails – family oriented)
o Hoskings Reserve3 (55 hectares; extreme mountain biking)
o several bush reserves such as Kaipatiki (off road cycling)
 Auckland City: Arch Hill Scenic Reserve ( 5 hectares between Mt Eden and Grey Lynn, partnership with Auckland Mountain Bike Club)
 Manukau City: Lloyd Elsmore Park (adventure bike trail)4
 Waitakere City: Te Rangi Hiroa5 (50.3 hectares between Massey West and Ranui)
from : Auckland Regional Council "Regional Parks cycling opportunities review 2009"
trancemaster
Member for: 5 years 9 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby Ryan on Tue 6/Apr/10 12:57pm

where is the AMBC building trails these days ?

whats happening with Sanders Reserve ? the trails look to be getting a little overgrown already, is there or has there been a official opening of them ?
Ryan
Member for: 10 years 2 months

Re: Waitakere Ranges Protest Ride - Good Idea Or Bad ?

Postby thorg on Tue 6/Apr/10 2:13pm

fatwombat wrote:
Giantman wrote:proveto me that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers.


These grooves and gouges can amount to a significant amount of track damage by themselves. On a surface that hasn't been designed for riding , they will also become runoff channels for rainwater, and this leads to serious erosion damage in a relatively short time.

I hope this gives you a starting point to rethink your perspective. I also hope you can convince the council to open up tracks for MTBing, even if that means user group has to be set up to fund preliminary upgrading of track surfaces. Just don't tell them to "prove that mountain bikes do more damage then walkers", or the project will never get off the ground.
Your thinking is stuck in the 80's - science has done much to demonstrate that cycling creates no more or less damage than walking. the arguments you use here have been used by walkers for years to 'demonstrate' how bikes do more damage than they do, they are wrong. Walking creates a very different sort of damage, spaced compaction on sloping terrain - and less lateral displacement than cycling - but still similar in overall damage and maintenance cost requirements. This research also demonstrates that motorbikes and horses have an impact similar to walkers and riders (this is rather more depandant on substrate and slope than the comparison of walkers to riders though).

Do a search on Gordon Cessfords articles if you want detail into the NZ implications of all this if you dont trust the link to the USA stuff. By being armed with the scientific fact, rather than repeating myth, cyclists can indeed prove that they cause no more (or less) maintenance damage than walkers.

I hope this gives you a starting point to rethink your perspective.
thorg
User avatar
"tanties in a twist"
Member for: 10 years 2 months

AKDH - Auckland Downhill | Auckland MTB Club | Auckland Region | Clubs | New Zealand | Regions | Upper North Island - Latest Posts

Who is online

64 Users browsing this website: dwgknz, Exabot [Bot], Flyboy, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], mfw, michael, Pauly, ryda, Scotty, Velocipedestrian and 48 guests

VORB SUPPORTERS


  • Butterfly Customs
  • GT Bicycles
  • Vorb Shop