Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby 13daza on Thu 21/May/15 11:53pm

I used to have a workshop van painted in hi viz fluoro orange it was so bright that when we took it out the NSA had to adjust the contrast on their spy satellites .When we got it painted I was stunned at how bright it was , it was like a physical shock just to clap eyes on the thing ,after the sign writing was done over the top it did soften the blow a little.... I fully expected that it would never be involved in an accident ever again .
Surprisingly ,within the first twelve months it got sideswiped on two occasions by bus drivers ( neither of whom seemed to give a rats arse that they hadn't noticed the most horrendously bright vehicle in Auckland and then hit it ) and a very polite gentleman ran up the bum of it in traffic he told the cop that he had "looked up and suddenly there it was" the cop was actually speechless while he tried to process that this guy hadn't seen the van ,I have no idea what else he was looking at that caused him to not notice the approaching glow in front of him for the hundred meters or so before he hit me .
Four + sq m of extremely bright hi -viz and reflective lettering failed to be visible on three occasions if drivers aren't going to see that then how can we expect a person sized scrap of bright colored cloth to get an inattentive drivers notice ,on the other hand many , many other people and customers noticed the van (great advertising) and all commented that no one would ever crash into that .....

I personally adopt the practices I used to survive being a motorcyclist in Auckland ..... my first assumption is that every vehicle is being driven by a homicidal psycho with poor vision .... I'm polite and as courteous as I can be whilst planning my escape in case they try and mow me down ,then I'm pleasantly surprised when they fail to get me. :)
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby AgrAde on Fri 22/May/15 12:17am

The van sounds amazing. Do you have a photo?
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby Scotty on Fri 22/May/15 6:42am

While on the topic of light sentences... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6 ... ehind-bars
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby Scotty on Fri 22/May/15 6:47am

13daza wrote:my first assumption is that every vehicle is being driven by a homicidal psycho with poor vision .... I'm polite and as courteous as I can be whilst planning my escape in case they try and mow me down ,then I'm pleasantly surprised when they fail to get me. :)

:lol:

I'm stealing that quote. :)
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby Derryn Hinch on Fri 22/May/15 9:47am

AgrAde wrote:It's the things you're trained to look for that's the problem. People just look for cars.


This.

A couple of weeks after I got my licence I turned onto a main road at a T intersection. As I completed my turn I looked in the mirror and saw a cyclist just behind me that I had not seen when scanning for cars to give way to. Gave me a scare as i knew I could have been that cyclist.

When I thought about it I quickly realised that I my brain had focussed on the centre of the lane about 50m up the road, presumably I unconsciously assumed any car closer than 50m would have passed in front of me by the time I pulled out and so I did not need to worry about any 'car' in that space.

Ever since I have always focussed (not just looked) at both the centre of the lane and the side of the lane.

Back on topic, I bought a ridiculously expensive gabba jersey yesterday for wearing on the roadie on wet winter days. I had a choice of fluoro or black, I chose fluoro despite it's uglyness. My reasoning was that I am only going to be wearing it on dull, wet days when black would make me almost invisible. Of course there are many drivers who don't see /care about cyclists, but there are some who are a little inattentive / poor vision who might just notice a fuoro top. Even if it only decreases my chance of being hit by 10%, surely 10% is better than nothing?
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby Percy Pig on Fri 22/May/15 10:32am

Scotty wrote:
13daza wrote:my first assumption is that every vehicle is being driven by a homicidal psycho with poor vision .... I'm polite and as courteous as I can be whilst planning my escape in case they try and mow me down ,then I'm pleasantly surprised when they fail to get me. :)

:lol:

I'm stealing that quote. :)

Thats a good un! :thumbsup:

It's also how I used to ride my moto, worked for the most part, only bounced off the side of one car who said they "didn't see me".
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby swtchbckr on Fri 22/May/15 1:15pm

my old adage has always been - pretend you're invisible and they're all drunk.
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby Kyle on Fri 22/May/15 1:28pm

The correct response to 'Sorry didn't see ya' should be to punch them straight in the nose.* Full force, no warning, no excuses, no mitigating factors. The phrase is an admission of guilt regarding a failure to abide by even the most simple tenets of the social contract. It is an attack on your agency as a human being, a declaration, not of war but of extermination through antipathy. You are not worthy of being considered, your existence is irrelevant and you are not human.




*Followed up with a courteous ' Nor I you, as unfortunate as that seems to be'
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby laworder on Sat 23/May/15 4:46am

I wear high vis, lots of it, along with lights, lots of them, and I believe it does help.

However there are a few people driving that shouldnt be. If they cant see high vis combined with lights they either lack the visual acuity or the ability to focus that makes a safe driver. And I agree that any driver that says "I didnt see the cyclist" should automatically lose their licence on the spot for life (unless said cyclist is riding at night with no lights and dark clothing)

The best answer in my view is to adopt a law similar to that in the Netherlands, where in any accident involving a car and a cyclist, the car driver is automatically considered to be at fault. And if in such an accident the driver causes death or reasonably severe injury to the cyclist all their vehicles are confiscated and they lose their licence for life, ESPECIALLY if they drive for a living. In addition they would be made financially responsible for all medical costs and/or support for the cyclist or their family in case of death.

I would qualify that to add that the cyclist needs to have been obeying applicable road rules at the time, i.e. using lights at night or in low light conditions, not running red lights though traffic or other reckless stuff - it has to be fair, but harsh. Once a few stories hit the media where people lose their cars, jobs and a big chunk of their incomes it might sink in that "I didnt see the cyclist" will no longer cut it if you dont want to end up on the streets.

Also, we need to have regular testing of drivers - a licence shouldnt be something you get to keep for life, all drivers should be retested every five years or so with a practical 30 minute on road test, to make sure their ability and vision is up to scratch. Make sure they are aware of what is going on all around them, and they know basic stuff like keeping left, looking before they drive though intersections, etc. This would make it safer for everybody, not just cyclists.

Regards
Peter
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby swtchbckr on Sat 23/May/15 8:39am

Kyle wrote:The correct response to 'Sorry didn't see ya' should be to punch them straight in the nose.* Full force, no warning, no excuses, no mitigating factors. The phrase is an admission of guilt regarding a failure to abide by even the most simple tenets of the social contract. It is an attack on your agency as a human being, a declaration, not of war but of extermination through antipathy. You are not worthy of being considered, your existence is irrelevant and you are not human.




*Followed up with a courteous ' Nor I you, as unfortunate as that seems to be'


THIS!
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby happybaboon on Sat 23/May/15 11:18am

laworder wrote:I wear high vis, lots of it, along with lights, lots of them, and I believe it does help.

Mate you can see the glow you create on the horizon from the East coast of Australia.

I used to think it was ridiculous but I get it now. Can we see a pic of what your bike's looking like at the moment? Also, got cameras yet? I'm intrigued by the fly6 camera/light unit - looks quite grouse. I'm not commuting in cities now though so I haven't invested.
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby laworder on Sat 23/May/15 4:54pm

Bikeback.jpg
Bikebacklit.jpg
Bikelights.jpg
Bikefrontlit.jpg
happybaboon wrote:
laworder wrote:I wear high vis, lots of it, along with lights, lots of them, and I believe it does help.

Mate you can see the glow you create on the horizon from the East coast of Australia.

I used to think it was ridiculous but I get it now. Can we see a pic of what your bike's looking like at the moment? Also, got cameras yet? I'm intrigued by the fly6 camera/light unit - looks quite grouse. I'm not commuting in cities now though so I haven't invested.


Here you go

The back ones currently are two Knogs and a Moonshield on the helmet, plus a Cateye and a Knog Blinder on the back. On the front I have a Lezyne on the helmet plus two Knogs, two Monnshines? and a Ferei on the bar. The Ferei isnt going at the moment, bad connector from battery to light I must get fixed. The Moonshines are running full power in the pic but I normally run them at half on the road

Most drivers do seem to be able to see me

Regards
Peter
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby kneemick on Thu 28/May/15 8:14pm

Wearing Hi-vis today, with flashing light on rear of bike and solid light on top of helmet had a truck pass that close if I had been on the mountain bike instead of the roadie he would have clipped the bars. Straight stretch of road, no yellow lines and no oncoming traffic. Doesn't matter what you do some people will not change their ways (unfortunately as in a 100 zone and trying to control the bike due to the wind created by the truck I did not have a chance to work out what the company was)
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby laworder on Fri 29/May/15 1:57am

kneemick wrote:Wearing Hi-vis today, with flashing light on rear of bike and solid light on top of helmet had a truck pass that close if I had been on the mountain bike instead of the roadie he would have clipped the bars. Straight stretch of road, no yellow lines and no oncoming traffic. Doesn't matter what you do some people will not change their ways (unfortunately as in a 100 zone and trying to control the bike due to the wind created by the truck I did not have a chance to work out what the company was)


This bears out what a lot of people have said - some people just cannot see and should not be driving, like the halfwit that ran into 13daza's work van earlier in this thread. This especially needs to be applied to "professional" drivers where the stakes are much higher, it is even more important that they lose their licences

Regards
Peter
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Re: Vorb Talkback Tuesday: The Hi-vis Fallacy

Postby jimmi71 on Fri 29/May/15 6:40am

happybaboon wrote:
laworder wrote:I wear high vis, lots of it, along with lights, lots of them, and I believe it does help.

Mate you can see the glow you create on the horizon from the East coast of Australia.

I used to think it was ridiculous but I get it now. Can we see a pic of what your bike's looking like at the moment? Also, got cameras yet? I'm intrigued by the fly6 camera/light unit - looks quite grouse. I'm not commuting in cities now though so I haven't invested.


Ive posted this before but......I ride 4 - 6 times a week at night with a MTB headlight pointed at the ground in front of me and I find this safer than riding during the day. The other day my light went dead (not bad after 10 years use or something) so I used my backup: a 1w flasher. Bugger me if 10 minutes later a car pulls out right in front of me!

The next day I went out and splashed on a 1000lumen USB rechargeable and a AA Nightrider Mako as backup.
Moral of the story? Dont buy cheap lights!
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Member for: 2 years 6 months

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