If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby supernovah on Thu 9th Feb 1:05pm

Hi there, simple question. I'm barreling down the road at 35 kph and car is turning from a stopped row of cars. The set of lights ahead is red, but there's an area of no stopping to let cars out of the adjacent car parking building.

A car turns as I come through, we collide.

The car is not visible through the steel behemoths and they are stopped prematurely to let turning one through (There's space ahead in the queue for the lights which they are voiding).

Is it my fault or theirs?

Here's an image to illustrate:

Image
supernovah
Member for: 6 years 9 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby cep32 on Thu 9th Feb 1:19pm

It's a bit of a grey area but this https://can.org.nz/forum/need-advice-on-laws-to-cycling is the advice I refer to. I'm not sure this has been tested in court.
cep32
Member for: 6 years 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby dwgknz on Thu 9th Feb 2:01pm

Road code is quite clear, as long as they were stopped you can pass in the same lane.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/about-driving/passing

The car turning always has the responsibility to make sure the way is clear. Not seeing someone is not an excuse.

Has the motorist tried to blame you or avoid liability?
dwgknz
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Member for: 4 years 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby matnz on Thu 9th Feb 2:26pm

IMHO Your fault regardless of the law, 35km/h passing on the left of stationary traffic and oblivious to what is going on around you. You did not see something as big and obvious as a car, how could you complain he did not see you?

Don't push the legal status on this one. Years ago my boss did a right turn across two lanes of traffic. Car in left lane doing about 40-45km/h collected the front of his car as he nosed into the left lane. Driver of other car was convicted careless driving due to excessive speed.

Look on the bright side - you Headstone is not be engraved "Here lies supernovah, he had the right of way" Its one thing to be in the right, another to mix it with a tonne or two of steel and plastic.
matnz
Member for: 2 years 5 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby philstar on Thu 9th Feb 4:34pm

I would put it in the category of you were foolish not to realise the cars were stopped for something, but their fault.

I would also guess (can't see the timing working any other way) that you were barrelling along the inside of a moving stream of traffic which then stopped?
philstar
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"misanthropic"
Member for: 11 years 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby supernovah on Thu 9th Feb 6:10pm

The cars were stopped practically for 500 metres up the road into Parnell so there was no "sudden stop" to avoid, I wasn't hit but the driver yelled at me and I thought I'd done nothing wrong.

And the car turning was not visible because there were giant metallic objects in the way, called cars.

Not to mention your focus is on the car's mirrors to see if there's any moron in the car who might be trying to get out and opening their door. It happened twice along broadway while travelling in the one direction on that particular day alone.
supernovah
Member for: 6 years 9 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby Conners on Thu 9th Feb 7:51pm

intersetion blocking rule is why there was a gap.
Other car wouldn't have been expecting someone barrelling at 35k while the cars are stopped.
In my opinion you should've seen the gap, recognised the situation, anticipated that there might have been a car pulling across that gap, slowed down a little, checked the way was clear and then proceeded across the gap.

I think on a purely technical level they are probably in the wrong - as long as the cars you were overtaking (and undertaking) were fully stopped. If cars are moving at all I understand you are not allowed to undertake at all.

35k between two rows of parked traffic is not a wise move in my book - no matter what the law says. In reality you're racing to get to the red light anyway.

Put yourself in the drivers seat too. Would you have expected a bike at 35k to steam out of the gap between two rows of parked cars?
If you claim you couldn't see him because of the cars - then he couldn't see you either.

Ride like you're invisible - a good mindset to avoid incidents like this one.
Conners
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"Seeing Double"
Member for: 14 years 3 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby swtchbckr on Thu 9th Feb 10:06pm

Cars stopped, or if you're in a bike lane, you are completely in the right, the turning car should have been looking for you, but they never do and so you have to be more careful. Driver had absolutely no right to yell at you - but they will also have absolutely no idea you were in the right. He/she probably never gave it another thought other than "stupid fucking cyclist".

A couple of cyclists have been killed in exactly the same situation on the Causeway / Mt Pleasant Rd intersection (Chch) - cars heading into town from Sumner, morning rush hour all backed up, cyclist coming along the inside in the bikelane, one 'helpful' car stops in the queue to let a right turning car across into Mt Pleasant Rd, and wham another dead cyclist. Tragedy for all involved and the families.
swtchbckr
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"Freakin' Mellonfarmer"
Member for: 12 years 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby barcode on Thu 9th Feb 10:52pm

Pragmatically, it's always the cyclists fault. Cars are heavy and big and loud and insulating; bikes are not.

Glad you're not seriously hurt.
barcode
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Member for: 11 years 5 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby theFan on Fri 10th Feb 11:13am

I've been in a very similar situation - except i was in a car in the long line of traffic (Papanui rd, Chch). The traffic was doing about 10km/hr and as i approached a gas station i indicated and turned left into the gas station. A cyclist was riding up the inside between parked cars and the line of slow moving traffic - a roadie doing 30km/hr +/- 5km i would guess. I looked but didn't see and they just managed to swerve in front of me and escape unharmed.

I thought long and hard about it and i just dont know how i could have avoided it. If i'd hit him, I still don't know what the law would say - they were for sure riding dangerously but i turned in front of them.
theFan
Member for: 1 year 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby RJD on Fri 10th Feb 11:38am

its not your fault, its the cars fault. Whenever you turn across traffic its your job to make sure its safe.


Sensible safe defensive cycling though says you should slow down and make sure you give them and yourself time to avoid this.
RJD
Member for: 9 years 6 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby swtchbckr on Fri 10th Feb 12:40pm

theFan wrote:I've been in a very similar situation - except i was in a car in the long line of traffic (Papanui rd, Chch). The traffic was doing about 10km/hr and as i approached a gas station i indicated and turned left into the gas station. A cyclist was riding up the inside between parked cars and the line of slow moving traffic - a roadie doing 30km/hr +/- 5km i would guess. I looked but didn't see and they just managed to swerve in front of me and escape unharmed.

I thought long and hard about it and i just dont know how i could have avoided it. If i'd hit him, I still don't know what the law would say - they were for sure riding dangerously but i turned in front of them.
in this case, it's the cyclists fault. If the traffic was moving and he didn't have his own bike lane then he should have, legally speaking, been travelling the same speed as the cars... But in reality, we all do this, especially if the traffic is moving REALLY slowly
swtchbckr
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"Freakin' Mellonfarmer"
Member for: 12 years 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby Rik on Fri 10th Feb 1:13pm

By the looks of the road markings (and I have no idea about any additional signage "on the ground") The solid white lines appear to indicate that turning traffic has right of way.
Rik
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""Cities are becoming more rational again, after the folly of car-centric planning," Colville-Andersen"
Member for: 9 years 4 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby philstar on Fri 10th Feb 4:56pm

supernovah wrote:The cars were stopped practically for 500 metres up the road into Parnell so there was no "sudden stop" to avoid, I wasn't hit but the driver yelled at me and I thought I'd done nothing wrong.


the thing that made me think that this in not the case is that there are only 2 cars at the lights in your diagram. unless there was a stream of cars turning right?
philstar
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"misanthropic"
Member for: 11 years 7 months

Re: If There Is A Crash In This Situation, Who Is In The Fault?

Postby philstar on Fri 10th Feb 5:13pm

Rik wrote:By the looks of the road markings (and I have no idea about any additional signage "on the ground") The solid white lines appear to indicate that turning traffic has right of way.


I would interpret the road markings as a less stringent version of yellow no stopping hashing. but it could also mean that the lights apply to this intersection as well, but no street signs to indicate anything
philstar
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"misanthropic"
Member for: 11 years 7 months

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