Hydration Queries

Postby slumdog on Tue 18/Jun/13 4:44pm

Pedalling my hamster wheel/trainer the other night, I contemplated the following:

1. It is very cold where I ride, despite this the sweat is rolling off. I've noticed on a training ride outside if I stop say at a shop or something, persperation increases tenfold. Sweaty shins, urgh..
Ergo, does this mean I sweat just as much outside as I do inside on the trainer, but that it is evaporated better? Or are you in fact just more sweaty on the trainer because you lack the cooling affect of the wind in your (leg) hair?

2. If your nutrition calculation calls for 80g of carb per hour, and say you use use sports drink exclusively to achieve this, does the dilution of the solution affect the nutrients your body recieves? I.e. if you diluted 80g carbs into a) 500ml bottle and b) 1000ml bottle, and consumed each within an hour,does your body recieve/utilise the nutrients the same, aside from the lower level of fluid? Or does diluting it further cause your body to more easily filter out, and therefore your bloodstream actually gets less of that 80g carb?
slumdog
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby CrashTestDummy on Tue 18/Jun/13 7:25pm

No idea about question 2, but for question 1 do a test by weighing yourself naked prior, then riding and eating and drinking nothing, and then weighing yourself after - drying off any excess sweat.

Gives you how much you are sweating. I did this for a 2 hr run and lost 2Kg - so 1Kg per hour = drink 1 litre per hour to replace it.
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby DogsBollocks on Tue 18/Jun/13 7:38pm

slumdog wrote:Pedalling my hamster wheel/trainer the other night, I contemplated the following:

1. It is very cold where I ride, despite this the sweat is rolling off. I've noticed on a training ride outside if I stop say at a shop or something, persperation increases tenfold. Sweaty shins, urgh..
Ergo, does this mean I sweat just as much outside as I do inside on the trainer, but that it is evaporated better? Or are you in fact just more sweaty on the trainer because you lack the cooling affect of the wind in your (leg) hair?

2. If your nutrition calculation calls for 80g of carb per hour, and say you use use sports drink exclusively to achieve this, does the dilution of the solution affect the nutrients your body recieves? I.e. if you diluted 80g carbs into a) 500ml bottle and b) 1000ml bottle, and consumed each within an hour,does your body recieve/utilise the nutrients the same, aside from the lower level of fluid? Or does diluting it further cause your body to more easily filter out, and therefore your bloodstream actually gets less of that 80g carb?


May I respectfully suggest,
- If your shins sweat you are too thin
- You can't dilute carbs, watering down a potato is not possible
- Cooling affect of the wind is best achieved by sticking your head out the window in the car on the way to the pub after the ride.
- Appropriate post ride nutrition calculation for Pilsner & Pie is 580mm + 250gm(aprox) = sufficient.
- Beer is a sports drink, by all means use it exclusively.
- If your body does not recieve/utilise the above nutrients, repeat until it does.
- Dilute nothing, add more.

HTH :) :blush:
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby cruiser on Tue 18/Jun/13 7:50pm

this has been thrashed to death, but here are my thoughts:
1/
Air flow helps cooling and evaporation - so a bit of both is happening. Slightly less sweat on the road I imagine because wind has a chill effect.

2/
Yes dilution affects speed of absorption. Most sport drinks are 6-8% to optimise absorption. If you drink concentrated drink, your guts will have more work to do before release into bloodstream - even taking fluid from your body in some cases.
Having a fistful of fluid in your gut before exercise might help absorption somewhat

All this only matters in high intensity, endurance efforts. There are plenty of people saying excessive use of sport drinks are leading to health problems. Just eat normally/ healthy and drink water otherwise. Be nice to your wallet and organs.

Reality is, you wont absorb anywhere near 80g/hr if going hard. Eating well beforehand is key. Much of the benefit in sugar during exercise is to tell the body/mind no need to slow down, fuel is coming - hence the instant boost of energy from jetplanes, coke etc. It's not from the jetplanes getting from mouth to muscle cells...
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby Kiwicyclo on Tue 18/Jun/13 7:56pm

Why consume 80 grams garbs per hour when you can only process around 26 grams per hour?

You then do not need the 3 grams of water for every gram of carbs consumed to break them down.

At 70% effort you do not need any carbs so only consume water . . . .

Drink when thirsty . . . . water only 1 hour x 1 bottle water only . . . . .
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby mfw on Tue 18/Jun/13 8:17pm

CrashTestDummy wrote:...for question 1 do a test by weighing yourself naked prior, then riding and eating and drinking nothing, and then weighing yourself after - drying off any excess sweat.

Gives you how much you are sweating. I did this for a 2 hr run and lost 2Kg - so 1Kg per hour = drink 1 litre per hour to replace it.

Water loss is not just sweating, anyone whose made out in a car will know how much moisture you exhale under exertion :D

Kiwicyclo wrote:Why consume 80 grams garbs per hour when you can only process around 26 grams per hour?
You then do not need the 3 grams of water for every gram of carbs consumed to break them down.
At 70% effort you do not need any carbs so only consume water . . . .

I read somewhere you could consume 1g per kg bodyweight, I guess this could be at lower intensity, so for long endurance events (e.g. brevet) what would be the target?
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby slumdog on Tue 18/Jun/13 8:26pm

Thanks guys,
Wasn't a question of 'what dosage should I take' or anything, just if dilution affected how your body responded to the same dosage over the same time, ignoring the affects of having less water (dehydration/overhydration etc). The dose is the same, the time is the same, just one is more diluted than the other.

No not trageting 80g or whatever, was just for theory sake. FWIW I read the same, 1g per kg. Was just some things pondered, tried a search and came up nothing, so sorry for the repeat.
slumdog
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby Kiwicyclo on Tue 18/Jun/13 9:04pm

mfw wrote:
CrashTestDummy wrote:...for question 1 do a test by weighing yourself naked prior, then riding and eating and drinking nothing, and then weighing yourself after - drying off any excess sweat.

Gives you how much you are sweating. I did this for a 2 hr run and lost 2Kg - so 1Kg per hour = drink 1 litre per hour to replace it.

Water loss is not just sweating, anyone whose made out in a car will know how much moisture you exhale under exertion :D

Kiwicyclo wrote:Why consume 80 grams garbs per hour when you can only process around 26 grams per hour?
You then do not need the 3 grams of water for every gram of carbs consumed to break them down.
At 70% effort you do not need any carbs so only consume water . . . .

I read somewhere you could consume 1g per kg bodyweight, I guess this could be at lower intensity, so for long endurance events (e.g. brevet) what would be the target?


You can consume as many gm's per kilo per hour that you want. But Your body can only process approximately 26 gms per hour.

The more you consume the more water you need to drink to just process the carbohydrates / sugars. At 80 grams per hour you need 240 grams per hour just to process the carbs, plus what you actually need for hydration purposes.

Guts ache, shits, tummy grumbles etc is all a symptom of excess carbs passing through unprocessed.

Not sure what the Brevet is? but is it long high intensity or "endurance" say 70% effort for most and periods of higher intensity?

You would be better off having a big feed of bacon, creamy scrambled eggs and creamy coffee 3 hours before the event (No toast etc), have a couple bits toast with peanut butter and banana 90 minutes before the start than find a lower concentration carb fuel for the event (say 1 scoop 30 grams at 80% carbs = 24 grams carbs) and chuck that in a bottle and consume over an hour before the start, then have the same concentrate per hour over the event.

Been doing that for nearly 6 months now with some pretty good to excellent results. Now at a point where 5 hour rides can be done on just water and almonds!

Had a few disasters as well, but working on those! :D

Just my few cents worth . . .
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby mfw on Tue 18/Jun/13 9:20pm

Kiwicyclo wrote:Not sure what the Brevet is? but is it long high intensity or "endurance" say 70% effort for most and periods of higher intensity?

An ultra marathon I guess, 1200km on & off road (approx. 12 hours * 7 days), not a race as such, only a race against time. http://kiwibrevet.blogspot.co.nz/
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby cruiser on Tue 18/Jun/13 11:22pm

slumdog wrote:Thanks guys,
Wasn't a question of 'what dosage should I take' or anything, just if dilution affected how your body responded to the same dosage over the same time, ignoring the affects of having less water (dehydration/overhydration etc). The dose is the same, the time is the same, just one is more diluted than the other.


Yes, on average dilution affects absorption rate over same dose, same time. This changes with increasing intensity.
Different energy sources use different pathways into bloodstream. If it's a longer endurance race or ride, you get more energy in by mixing your types of carb. It also matters what the carbs are i.e. 50g of sucrose will absorb slower than 50g glucose.

For efforts up to ~80%, there's no measurable difference in performance between eating solid or liquid fuel.
In short high intensity, you're really just wanting to send a message to the brain.

You have to understand also, maximizing absorption may not mean maximizing performance. Do what feels best.
cruiser
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby great uncle bulgaria on Wed 19/Jun/13 12:06am

Kiwicyclo wrote:you can only process around 26 grams per hour? .

wher did this figure come from? it's fairly a odds with what I was taught . . .(as is a lot of the other stuff)
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby Ahad on Wed 19/Jun/13 12:12am

Kiwicyclo wrote:Why consume 80 grams garbs per hour when you can only process around 26 grams per hour?


According to who? Based on what?

This nutrionist has a completely different idea and suggests you can process between 1.25 and 1.75g's of carbs per minute or 75 to 105g/hr depending on carb source (straight or mixed) in a race situation. Or is this just a pro-carb conspiracy?
=}
http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com ... er-session

This sports nutritionist says 40 to 80g's/hr
http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/ ... ur_cycling

So either human physiology has completely changed in the last couple of yrs? Or were people just crap at science, say before 2011, and got it all wrong?
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby Kiwicyclo on Wed 19/Jun/13 11:36am

Pro carb entities will always encourage a higher dose rate, as that is what they are pushing, selling, have interest in etc. Same with this sugar is better than that sugar . . . etc etc

Paelo entities will push a lower (even no) carb, higher fat / protein mix . . . .

Just did a google search and every page has a different amount of carbs required per hour of exercise . . . you still got to work out what is best for you.

I am working along the lines of http://eatingacademy.com/ and it is working, not an overnight sensational fix, took 6 weeks to see some results, 12 weeks for good effect and now at 6 months getting some excellent results in both terms of endurance, fitness, body shape, and general health.

Using this product in racing http://www.generationucan.com

Backed up personally with a couple of lab sessions on the erg, wired, masked up etc (6 weeks and 12 weeks) . . .

It is just a view . . . not right or wrong . . .
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby Kiwicyclo on Wed 19/Jun/13 11:40am

great uncle bulgaria wrote:
Kiwicyclo wrote:you can only process around 26 grams per hour? .

wher did this figure come from? it's fairly a odds with what I was taught . . .(as is a lot of the other stuff)


I was taught that the food triangle was a good thing as it is. Probably pro carbists doing the teaching, look at society due to predominant carbohydrate loaded diet most of the population consume.

Now I am being taught that tip that triangle upside down! Apparently sugars are the new cocaine!
Kiwicyclo
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Re: Hydration Queries

Postby cruiser on Wed 19/Jun/13 1:51pm

There's far too much guru talk in the dietary advice world.
The eating academy 'guru' speaks predominantly from the persuasive angle of obesity and its relationship to processed sugar. There's a massive difference between fructose in its lab form (or corn syrup form) and fructose as a natural component of a banana. Personally I think a more accurate comment would be "processed sugars in excess", is not flash. There's also a difference in the chronic effect of sugars on someone who eats regular processed food and someone who eats more balanced diet.

The endurance feats he claims, have been achieved on all kinds of diets. A question to ponder with a long-term dietary choice would be "what is your cellular health likely to be like in 20-30 years?"

With a big picture of fruit, this article is a classic http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/how- ... vegetables.

His argument is based on western obesity and its relationship to hi-fructose corn syrup, not once does he point out that these studies relate only to processed sugars rather than fresh fruit n vege. Then he goes on, using pictures and graphs to point out the genetic modification of corn as a one-rule-for-them-all in saying fruit is no longer natural - to the point we shouldn't eat it :crazy: ...and the masses are convinced by a guru, once again.
Last edited by cruiser on Wed 19/Jun/13 4:28pm, edited 1 time in total.
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