From Drop Machine
Dave, well both Dave's actually, are damn smart guys. The kind of smart that you can feel when you ride thier bikes. This partnership has the potential to bring out some of the best bikes the industry has seen in a while, through DW's suspension design and DT's fanatical quality control. We got Dave Weagle (DW in the article, duh) to answer a few questions on the bikes, as well as a few things about the linkage itself.



DM :: So I guess the first question people will want to know is, why Turner?

DW :: I've been a Turner bikes fan since I first got involved in mountain bikes in the late 90s. I've always been impressed by the level of manufacturing quality and customer support that came with the Turner name. I first talked to Dave in 2000 or 2001 after he developed the ISCG standard with Bob Barnett. Of course our conversation went right to suspensions, and I liked his approach of basing everything off what the bike did on the trail. A few years later we had the chance to ride together and one thing led to another. One thing that I love about Turner is that they have been building suspension bikes almost exclusively in their line from day 1. Dave is an obsessive tinkerer and tuner, so coupled with the Turner attention to detail, I knew that together we could come up with some bikes that we could be really proud of.



DM :: How closely were you involved in the design of the new bikes? Was it hands on, or more "here's the specs, get to work Turner."

DW :: The frame geometry and mechanical implementation is all Turner. I try to help where I can with suggestions in the form of hand sketches when we are trying to solve specific issues, but Dave and Todd (Turner's very capable engineer) are on it after that. For the kinematics, the actual suspension geometry, this is my realm. I treat this as a collaborative process. This starts off with a lot of talking, then riding, then more talking and riding. It's my job to interpret what Dave Turner wants the bike to feel like from a suspension standpoint and turn that into geometric locations. From an anti-squat standpoint and the balance of mass transfer, the bikes will perform similarly to other dw-link bikes that I have done. In my opinion, this is the base of a great performing suspension, because there are no bad performance traits that I have to "mask" later with compromises that might negatively affect the ride.

From a suspension "feel" standpoint, I've tried to engineer these bikes to build on the traits that have made Turners rider favorites in their respective categories. This is especially true for the shorter travel bikes. On the longer travel bikes, I was able to use some of my experience from the World Cup circuit and from working with shock manufacturers to develop a really unique evolution of the DHR and Sunday. I think that the new DHR really takes the best parts of both bikes and combines them into one with the early to mid travel suppleness and traction of the Sunday, and the end travel ramp and higher spring rates of the DHR.


DM :: The Turner DW bikes look quite a bit different then the Iron Horse ones do, particularly in how close the linkages are. What will be the main differences between the new and older DW bikes?

DW :: On the DHR, the links are close together and part of that was to achieve the dual progressive leverage rate curve that gives the early travel traction and late travel ramp that I spoke of before. These links are pretty close together, but if you look at the Ibis and Pivot Cycles bikes you can see that this is the general direction that dw-link has been heading. All in all though, link spacing is not something that is really a focus. I'm looking more at absolute suspension performance and structural performance. Turner has done a great job on the structural side with big oversize hollow aluminum pivots and their trademark sealed bushing system on some models. The bikes that I have ridden have been stiff and light. As with anything, the more you do it, the more you learn. Through experience, I've learned how to very precisely tune wheel rates, and for air shocked bikes, this is really important. Each bike's leverage rate is specifically engineered to work with a specific air shock and even air can volume to hit a desired wheel rate or wheel rate options. From there we develop damper tunes to meet the frame requirements. All of the latest dw-link bikes from Ibis, Pivot, and Turner take advantage of that evolving knowledge.


DM :: With the links closer together, how was stiffness addressed?

DW :: You can't see it but the pivots are actually made out of carrots. Yes, actual garden variety carrots. They are awesome! and tasty! and good for you! Hah.

No seriously, Dave and Todd engineered large hollow aluminum pivots that are lightweight, strong, and stiff as all get out. Really though, links being close together does not present a significant stiffness challenge. You just need to know how much material to put where, and the closer the pivots, the less material you need to have to span the gap between the pivots. At anything other than spacecraft grades of optimization it's good either way in my opinion.

DM :: Why does everybody get such a woody over the DW link anyways? What's the difference in the ride compared to say, VPP, Maestro or even FSR?

DW :: I think it's because the people who are psyched on it are people who actually ride bikes. I've always had to just say what the suspension does and let the riders get out there and feel it for themselves. I've never made performance claims that the system couldn't back up or that couldn't be backed up with physics. In an industry where selling bike suspensions has come down to who can place the most print ads with outrageous, impossible claims in them I think that riders find that refreshing.

Most important though, to me, it seems that the bottom line is that dw-link makes bikes that are fun to ride. You don't have to take your riding time to think about flipping a lever or losing traction at a crucial moment or whatever. The system is as "transparent" as a suspension can be and that lets riders enjoy the ride more and tinker less. That's my take on it at least!


DM :: Any chance of lower priced Turners using the Split Pivot system?



DW :: Hmmm, where is my magic 8 ball?!! (Ed. note : this answer makes me excited in the pants.)



DM :: Besides Turner, who else will be using the DW Link for the coming year? What will differentiate those bikes from the Turners?

DW :: This year we have Iron Horse in its last year of dw-link licensing, the bikes are the same in 09 as they were in 05-08 with new graphics and some new component specs. Ibis is killing is with the incredibly popular all-carbon Mojo. My lips are sealed on new Ibis projects but you can bet they are up to something. Newcomer as of 08, Pivot Cycles is coming off a really strong first year with the introduction (today actually) of an all new 167mm all-mountain bike called the Firebird. It uses a floating shock design similar to what we did on the IF Tungsten Electrode project a few years back. I have had the chance to spend some time in Arizona recently on this bike and I have to say that I am really looking forward to getting one here and ripping the XC trails on it hard, it was awesome. Also, their 429 has me saying something that I never thought I would. I like this 29er bike! I had a blast riding it, I really did. IF is still waiting in the balance. Someday my friends, someday.


Thanks Dave, appreciate it a lot!

Anytime Jeff, thank you!



To learn more, check out :: www.turnerbikes.com :: www.dw-link.com

[quote="Dave Weagle posting on Mtbr"]
DW becoming a homer
Everyone who has spent time on the interwebs and cycling forums knows that the Turner homers are some of the most passionate and opinionated riders to ever ride and scrutinize a bicycle. As someone who thrives on riding and scrutinizing bicycles, I am thrilled to join your family.

Thanks to all of you who have sent kind words of support, encouragement, and excitement about the dw-link / Turner partnership. I’m as excited as you are. Many of you who know me, either in person or through years of talking on forums, know that Turner has been one of the brands that I’ve really looked up to since I first got into mountain bikes in the late ‘90s. I’ve always been a big fan of the Turner hallmarks of quality, straightforward design, and customer service. I think that this new dw-linked line really will help keep that tradition going. As a rider, I can say that the Turner dw-links are each as individually unique as the dw-link designs used by Ibis and Pivot. I urge you to test the bikes, whatever opinion you hold from a picture or prior experience will be backed up with real, live experience. I am looking forward to hearing all of the homer feedback. To that end, I’ll be available at the Turner, IBIS, and Pivot booths at Interbike and Dirt Demo for Q&A, general grilling, and hopefully a lot more talk about great rides than the finer points of rear suspension..

I’ve briefly scanned the hundreds and hundreds of posts / questions that have popped up since yesterday on the multitude of boards. I will try to answer some of the more commonly occurring questions that I saw.

- Can you switch links back and forth between different dw-link Turner models?

A: Nope, dw-link is a lot more reliant on specific pivot location and kinematic layout than FSR or TNT. The ability to tune and characterize dw-link’s comparatively complex anti-squat and wheel rate curves comes through closely calibrated suspension geometry. Even very small changes, less than 2mm, can have major and unplanned effects on performance.

- Will the Turner dw-links ride like other dw-link bikes that I have ridden?

A: The development of a new dw-link bike is a collaborative affair. For the Turner bikes, the process starts with frame geometry developed by DT himself. This is the first part that gives each bike a unique Turner personality. All dw-link bikes ever made share one common factor. I was responsible for the development of the suspension kinematics for each of these bikes. Whether it’s an Iron Horse, Ibis, Pivot, Turner, or IF, the how’s and why’s of the dw-link suspension begin and end here. So from one standpoint, the bikes are going to ride similarly in some respects, but for the most part they are all very different.

The heart of the dw-link system is its position sensitive anti-squat, and this is shared by all dw-link platforms. There is a very wide range of variability in wheel rate possible within the dw-link system, and I use this to help create each unique suspension bike’s personality. I work hand in hand with each manufacturer to help them realize their idea of what the ultimate suspension bike feels like on the trail. Based on the feedback that I gathered from talking with and riding with Dave Turner and his trusted advisors, I developed wheel rates and ultimately leverage rates to give us the “feelâ€