Re: Training Theory

Postby Joel on Thu 3/Sep/09 3:31pm

i would guess Muzza is using the generic program supplied by the organisers.

i would suggest you just go with what is next as per scheduled in the program. unless you have an interuption where you either do not get much riding for a week or two. Or can't complete the sessions as layed out over a 2-3 week period.

on a 9week program, it is really just getting you conditioned to go the distance with blowing up.
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Muzza on Thu 3/Sep/09 5:18pm

I am the coach. I enjoy learning that side of the sport, then crash testing my learning. May not be perfect but I've learned a lot about training methods and what my body can take and not take.

This is the first time I've training for such a long event so based my program around the generic program. But with no past experience riding such an event, uncertain which is better quality of interval or just time on bike. I've built a great base over the last 13 weeks of programmed riding and feeling fine so will take your advice Joel and plan to ride longer. But will set criteria to meet before boxing on and completing additional time.

Joel I hope you meant "on a 9week program, it is really just getting you conditioned to go the distance WITHOUT blowing up."
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Joel on Thu 3/Sep/09 5:25pm

:D
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Fergie on Thu 3/Sep/09 6:39pm

Physical training is preparing the body for what you intend to do in racing. So if it's Hendy doing 40:20s (thats evil Terry :p ) so he can smack along with the pace variations in Paris Roubaix as they hit the Pave or Roly averaging 350 watts+ for double figure 8 so he can handle the never ending climbs and more importantly the pace they are riding at.

While conditioning will ensure you can ride the duration you need to prepare the legs for speed and power. Even in the recreational rides you will no doubt want to stay with bunches as they hit climbs or top 50kph in strong tailwind sections. This is why you do the intervals, repeats and efforts.

With FOC coming up I have been reminding people that this is a speed event. Rather than easy rides round the Bays I have been suggesting repeats up Gebbies and Evans and even taking into account the tight and twisty nature of the start from McCormacks Bay to Cashmere to get a group of 4-5 riders and do efforts round there at pace to firstly have the speed and power but also the technical skills through those tight turns and roundabouts.

In Christchurch with the Nelson Club Nats course in mind I have been suggesting to do efforts from Takahe to Kiwi as this road simulates the drag up Moutere Hill. These are timed efforts so they have to be ridden fast and riders have to back up. Some good bugger has even marked off 1, 2, 3 and 4km intervals along the way.

Roly has declared that the NZ Champions jersey will be worn in Europe next year, on his shoulders. He says he will be doing plenty of work on the course leading into the event. While I expect most A, B and C grade Canterbury Cyclists can ride 180km in their sleep the real question is can people handle the Dyers Pass climb 11 times?

So once you are confident that you can go the K2 distance I would start working on having the power to ride the climbs. Because nine times out of ten on the day no matter how you plan to pace yourself once the gun goes you will push yourself hard on the hills and if the muscles are not prepared for this your ride will end in tears.
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Re: Training Theory

Postby 84millsy on Thu 3/Sep/09 8:27pm

Quick question about HRM's to those out there that know a bit about them - because I don't.
Have started using one in the last month and a half, but during intervals I find my heart rate drops even if I repeat the same section of road in the same conditions doing repeats. The first 2 intervals I can keep above 80% max, but then it starts dropping until I'm around 65-70% - and I'm not losing any speed, changing gear or dropping cadence etc. i usually give up after 5 feeling fine yet frustrated.
I have found it similar on hills where I start off with the blood pumping but the rate steadily drops without a drop in speed or perceived effort.

Any advice on keeping it up (cue viagra jokes), without blowing my legs apart? I'm already spinning a relatively high gear around 90-100 rpm on the flat. Should I start smoking?
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Fergie on Thu 3/Sep/09 9:15pm

How long are the repeats?
How did you determine Max HR%
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Re: Training Theory

Postby gydey on Fri 4/Sep/09 9:48am

Millsy..pay a few bucks and get a lactate test..and the guessing will stop!!

You are unique my friend, as you should be able to do 3-5 5km repeats and maintain your HR. If right from the start you cant get your HR up..you are in a temprary fatigued state, and nothing you do will get your HR up that day..so you either accept that your HR wont come up, but you do the interval as part of the training process, or you flag them for the day.

What gears do you use? I would recommend 53x17-15 for all aerobic/threshold intervals..at a cadence of 75-90 rpm. Chances are, if you are spinning at 100rpm, you arent really working hard enough to keep your HR up??
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Muzza on Fri 4/Sep/09 1:37pm

To see if you are in the ball park you can use one of the many Heart rate formulas. For example a male one is MaxHR= 210-(Age/2)-(147*0.05)+4

Another method talked about in a number of books is the Lactate Threshold Test. Being
- Keeping condition as close a possible for test. e.g. Weather, course (flat), warm-up, bike setup, complete at end of a light/rest week, no food 2 hours etc.
- Ride all out for 30 minutes, with heart rate display covered.
10 minutes into ride press lap. The average HT for the last 20min is approx LT ( so approx maxHR = (LT heart rate*100)/91)).
( if your heart monitor cannot give average HT for laps, then ride 10min then press start and continue for remaining 20min.)

You can also note and monitored MaxHR, Average Speed and distance of ride, to see improvements/losses on subsequent tests.

Note these are only going to give you an approximate value and would not replace Lactate Test Gydey recommends. Out of interest have any of you coaches with athletes LT lab tested compared with 30min LT test results with lab test results or use another test to monitor LT outside of the lab?
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Re: Training Theory

Postby gydey on Fri 4/Sep/09 2:01pm

Shit..they are pretty agricultural tests...and I wouldnt read too much into them at all. You could try a conconi test on Denton park and start at 30kph and increase speed by 1 kph each lap and yell your HR to someone at the start line each lap and p,lot a graph...and you would get a better indication as there should be deflection points.

In terms of training to Aerobic or anaerobic threshold..these will give yoiu the best guidelines to make progression and take away all of this guess work.

Good question re lab test AT and real AT. AT is AT...however some people have fantastic lactate tolerance, so whilst in theory you are producing more lactate than you are metabolising...you will sit at much higher HRs. In 97 I rode the NZ TT and my AT is 155bpm. With bicarb loading and my natural lactate tolerance, I sat at 182-186 all ride. My Max HR was 188.

Those that dont know what AT is..its the HR value at which you are producing more lactate than your body can remetabolise as a fuel and thus the waste product (lactate) is a performance inhibitor.
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Ahad on Fri 4/Sep/09 6:32pm

84millsy wrote:Quick question about HRM's to those out there that know a bit about them - because I don't.
Have started using one in the last month and a half, but during intervals I find my heart rate drops even if I repeat the same section of road in the same conditions doing repeats. The first 2 intervals I can keep above 80% max, but then it starts dropping until I'm around 65-70% - and I'm not losing any speed, changing gear or dropping cadence etc. i usually give up after 5 feeling fine yet frustrated.
...Should I start smoking?


Yeah definately! As soon as your HR starts to dip, take a drag of that stoogie and viola! your HR will be back up to speed in no time!

But seriously my HR only does that( well similar but not the same) if I've been overdoing it and haven't been doing enough flat or recovery rides. Usually I can hold 85-90%max for 4-6*3-5min efforts on the flat without too much trouble-still hard though.
My max is 187. But if i'm fatigued I try really hard to keep HR up for 1st couple of intervals and then it falls away by the 3rd or 4th so I give up.
In this fatigued state I'll get back from a ride and the HR will just drop down to 80 within a few minutes instead of hanging around the 100bpm's area for 5 or 10min. Or instead of 130bpm biking along at ~ 30kph like usual, it'll be 110 to 115 or something stupid.

When it does that now, after injuring myself a few yrs back in that state, I just take a few days off until the HR is back to normal. It just seems I can't thrash myself like some guys can...
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Al_Bushman on Sun 6/Sep/09 9:22pm

All this talk of HR's has caused me to get another coded belt for my Suunto. Never trained on the bike with a HR monitor before. Noticed two things.

1. My average HR for a flat ride was 146bpm
2. My average HR for a hill ride was 144bpm

Also, even at max effort my hr very rarely tops 175bpm and I'm 37. I get the feeling this is low. I've always had low blood pressure and my normal resting hr is 43bpm. What does this mean physiologically for me? It must mean something but stuffed if I know.
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Re: Training Theory

Postby percythepunter on Sun 6/Sep/09 10:03pm

Al_Bushman wrote:All this talk of HR's has caused me to get another coded belt for my Suunto. Never trained on the bike with a HR monitor before. Noticed two things.

1. My average HR for a flat ride was 146bpm
2. My average HR for a hill ride was 144bpm

Also, even at max effort my hr very rarely tops 175bpm and I'm 37. I get the feeling this is low. I've always had low blood pressure and my normal resting hr is 43bpm. What does this mean physiologically for me? It must mean something but stuffed if I know.



that you're a freak and should be in lance's team?
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Re: Training Theory

Postby percythepunter on Sun 6/Sep/09 10:07pm

and that lance should be riding for YOU
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Re: Training Theory

Postby istepinyards on Sun 6/Sep/09 10:23pm

Al_Bushman wrote:All this talk of HR's has caused me to get another coded belt for my Suunto. Never trained on the bike with a HR monitor before. Noticed two things.

1. My average HR for a flat ride was 146bpm
2. My average HR for a hill ride was 144bpm

Also, even at max effort my hr very rarely tops 175bpm and I'm 37. I get the feeling this is low. I've always had low blood pressure and my normal resting hr is 43bpm. What does this mean physiologically for me? It must mean something but stuffed if I know.
Hello Mr Indurain.
Fergie should remember his ridiculously low numbers. Plus you must moisturise Al. No way you look my age :love:
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Re: Training Theory

Postby Fergie on Sun 6/Sep/09 10:48pm

Low? My Max is 203 at age 38. I average 175-180 up the longer climbs. Not that that really means anything.

Suspect it means Al can push himself as hard on the flat as he can on the climbs. Would like to cross check against power to be certain but it's a good skill to have. Time trialist's and pursuiter's do quite well at this so one would expect Rochie and TTMan to be punching above their weight in hill leaderboard relative to age and body fat levels as well as doing respectable TT times on Old Tai Tapu Rd.
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