YEP

I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

My glass is half full too Oli. Its the other half that bothers me most of the time

sifter wrote:Someone at work asked an interesting questions - he pointed out cycling is a team sport. If a GC rider is clean, but his team mates test positive for drugs, is there any penalty against the GC rider? e.g. could someone be towed around France by 8 guys on the juice, and still claim a win?

there is a minimum number of riders that you are required to have on a team, otherwise the team has to withdraw... from memory 4 or 5. so if bulk of team caught during le tour, and kicked out.. once under minimum the team has to withdraw.

does not apply in post tour..

sifter wrote:Someone at work asked an interesting questions - he pointed out cycling is a team sport. If a GC rider is clean, but his team mates test positive for drugs, is there any penalty against the GC rider? e.g. could someone be towed around France by 8 guys on the juice, and still claim a win?

That's what I was thinking about too, say with LA, if some dopers were on his team that didn't get caught (due to testing tech not being up to scratch on whatever they were using), so his team was stronger than those around them, but he was clean still, his team could support him around the tour to win???

He's surely had an advantage from his teammates doping, (drafting faster or whatever) even though clean himself?

So as long as his team didn't get caught, I think what you are suggesting would be possible, but is it likely?

And, as long as they are clean, a GC rider would be unlikely to have a win forefitted, but still had that advantage from others doping??

slumdog wrote:

sifter wrote:Someone at work asked an interesting questions - he pointed out cycling is a team sport. If a GC rider is clean, but his team mates test positive for drugs, is there any penalty against the GC rider? e.g. could someone be towed around France by 8 guys on the juice, and still claim a win?

That's what I was thinking about too, say with LA, if some dopers were on his team that didn't get caught (due to testing tech not being up to scratch on whatever they were using), so his team was stronger than those around them, but he was clean still, his team could support him around the tour to win???

He's surely had an advantage from his teammates doping, (drafting faster or whatever) even though clean himself?

So as long as his team didn't get caught, I think what you are suggesting would be possible, but is it likely?

And, as long as they are clean, a GC rider would be unlikely to have a win forefitted, but still had that advantage from others doping??

Totally. If your team is uber-strong because they are doped to the eyeballs, then they are going to be able to be of a huge amount of help to a GC contender. The GC contender still has to be able to pull out some pretty fantastic individual stuff in the time trials and hill climbs, but if there is a team time trial involved in the tour, then a doped team have a huge advantage!!

*cough*Tiralongo*cough*Navarro*cough*

Oli wrote:*cough*Tiralongo*cough*Navarro*cough*

Yeh maybe. Maybe the reason Bert was not as strong this year is that he cut back/cut out the hot sauce himself?

Oli wrote:*cough*Tiralongo*cough*Navarro*cough*

They were very very strong. But only on the climbs really.

nostromo wrote:

Oli wrote:*cough*Tiralongo*cough*Navarro*cough*

They were very very strong. But only on the climbs really.

When two domestiques who have shown little similar sort of form in their career before can force the pace enough to burn off genuine Tour contenders willy-nilly I ask questions. As Istep said, it's the same sort of dodgy behaviour as displayed by domestiques from other famous teams in the past, many of who subsequently tested positive.

I'm not saying they were on the juice, but they are sure ideal candidates in the context of the discussion.

Yeah some of those climbs Navarro in particular looked like he was putting everybody in the hurt box majorly, his boss included, and it was sustained.

I felt so sorry for Evans when he was dropped in the yellow jersey - his main tormentor was Tiralongo, and when his evil work was done he slid back down to Evans' group and sat next to Cuddles smirking at him. They rode the rest of the stage together, Tour contender and contender destroyer.

Oli wrote:I felt so sorry for Evans when he was dropped in the yellow jersey - his main tormentor was Tiralongo, and when his evil work was done he slid back down to Evans' group and sat next to Cuddles smirking at him. They rode the rest of the stage together, Tour contender and contender destroyer.

in fairness to those riders, that was a short duration power.. they nailed it for 5-10min then blew up.. recovered then rode tempo. just as voight/Sorensen did for Shleck, definitely did not ride at that pace for whole climb, and you could tell they were suffering.. but i am not saying they weren't on the juice.. but put the performance in context

they also went out the arse when sorensen was putting hammer down for shleck which showed them suffering from early efforts in the stage.. more of an indicator that not on the juice than anything else. if they did it every stage and did not suffer.. then i would think they are.

good article on those power aspects here.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/
which Lemond himself has referred to.

Oli wrote:I'm not saying they were on the juice, but they are sure ideal candidates in the context of the discussion.