CrustyMTB wrote: And "farming" is a loaded and misused word. It covers everything from the highly profitable and clean seed crop industry, to the currently barely econimically viable sheep, right through to the white crude producing dairy.

Does it cover that guy on the chesdale cheese packet? you know good old fashion main stream New Zealaders. The mythological semi god like trev down on the sheep farm with his farm dogs and black singlet, swilling back beer listening to the rugby on the wireless? its practically treason to suggest anything that might offend a farmer in New Zealand dont you know?

Infact Russ, do you even know how much tax you pay?

Ooooooo, ummm I mostly meant those new age fashion farmers on their lifestyle blocks, you just know they've never deflowered a sheep in the back of a ute, like us real kiwis...

CrustyMTB wrote: Ooooooo, ummm I mostly meant those new age fashion farmers on their lifestyle blocks, you just know they've never deflowered a sheep in the back of a ute, like us real kiwis...

You mean those cultural Marxists who are trying to achieve the communist utopia of self sustainability?!? Heathen!!! Traitor!!! I'm sending my people after you!! you aught to be hung drawn and quartered for a remark like that!!

RussS wrote:...into line with the real world...

Hmmmmm, my experience in the 'real world' is limited to the US (California) where while I paid less tax I got a LOT less in terms of services and my employer had to pay ever increasing amounts of health insurance. Health care costs are one of the major issues facing US corporations (that and pay-as-you-go superannuation / pension schemes). I also saw the significant costs in terms of health insurance (thousands a month in some cases) that my co-workers who became contractors or were simply laid off ended up paying for health care...

Or did you mean the real world in Australia where I would be taxed significantly more than I am here in New Zealand? 45c on top rates anyone???

The "we're over taxed' chant is a little too simplistic.

Personally I don't believe that Tax can be debated as an issue in isolation from the services it funds. Very few NZers want tax cuts if it means cuts to the core public services (Police, Health, Schools etc.) or paying directly (I happen to like the idea of a tax cut funded by toll roads if it could be done, go the Nats on that one). I figure the equation really needs to be something like:

Burden = Tax Paid - Value of Services Provided

I am sure the economists have a proper model for this.

My feeling is that we'd find that the 'burden' of living in NZ might not be as bad as the dog whistle political messages being rammed down our throughts might have us believe.

benw wrote:

Personally I don't believe that Tax can be debated as an issue in isolation from the services it funds.

It can if you attach lots of emotive words to it

michael wrote:

benw wrote:

Personally I don't believe that Tax can be debated as an issue in isolation from the services it funds.

It can if you attach lots of emotive words to it

Now michael, emotive words...people in glass houses and all that

benw wrote:

michael wrote:

benw wrote:

Personally I don't believe that Tax can be debated as an issue in isolation from the services it funds.

It can if you attach lots of emotive words to it

Now michael, emotive words...people in glass houses and all that

I'm sorry (I'm just getting excited because I've got less than 3 weeks left in Christchurch before I can move back to Wellington)

thorg wrote: We have a wonderful clean green image - image being the appropriate word. NZ is a filthy dirty eco killing monster - we just hide it well and ignor it.

Being greener wont help our tourism, we are already considered green.

However, if the truth about NZ came out, our tourism would suffer greatly

Absolute gibblygook.

Folk don't give a toss about cows farting and laying logs.

Folk come to NZ cos' they get to see some nice trees, experience farty smells at Rotorua, go skiing and generally hang out in Queenstown.

Plenty of folk come here to OZ, do they care that in the back blocks there are oodles of coal fired power stations chugging away? No they don't. They come for the sun, the beaches and what not.

Saying animal effluent and flatus is, or can hurt our tourism is absolute rubbish.

Is farming detrimental to the planet's health? Yes. For farmers to become more environmentally responsible we need to make it beneficial for them to be so, not hammer them because they are not. Otherwise, they may as well shut up shop, which is not good all round for everyone else.

benw wrote:Or did you mean the real world in Australia where I would be taxed significantly more than I am here in New Zealand? 45c on top rates anyone???

Yeah but do you know when that 45c kicks in? much higher than you will ever earn, in fact in Australia you will pay less tax than a kiwi up until you earn ~$1.5 million

benw wrote:In NZ we rely on our clean green branding, especially with our Tourism and Farming industries. Overseas consumers are becoming more and more aware of sustainability as a brand attribute they want.

Like the English who are rebelling against our lamb because of carbon miles? NZ needs to concentrate more on exporting technology, especially software, and less on foodstuffs, lets make food more affordable here rather than push up the local prices because overseas demand is high, look after your own backyard first is my motto.

and for crying out loud, if we punish NZ industry by sucking cash out of them, what the fuck is the sense in sending that cash overseas to some corrupt Russian state?

I would think if we do suck cash out, it is best to put it back into a worthwhile,local cause. Hell, take the cash and plant some more native bush, for fuck's sake, build some fart sucking pipelines or something. Jeebus.

Kazmeistyr wrote:Saying animal effluent and flatus is, or can hurt our tourism is absolute rubbish.

Well, New Zealand has a brand in the minds of consumers of our products and services. People see us as an 'untouched' and 'pristine' environment. Bad things happen when the reality doesn't live up to the brand.

Environmental degradation undermines our brand and that will end in tears.

Wait until the food miles thing blows over and the European farmers and / or protectionist polititians begin to point to our water quality situation and growing pollution profile at home.

We have to keep on lifting our game. Consumers care about this stuff.

benw wrote:Consumers care about this stuff.

And are looking more and more closely at it.

jeremyb wrote:

benw wrote:In NZ we rely on our clean green branding, especially with our Tourism and Farming industries. Overseas consumers are becoming more and more aware of sustainability as a brand attribute they want.

Like the English who are rebelling against our lamb because of carbon miles? NZ needs to concentrate more on exporting technology, especially software, and less on foodstuffs, lets make food more affordable here rather than push up the local prices because overseas demand is high, look after your own backyard first is my motto.

Luckily the food miles thing has blown over somewhat, not sure if that was entirely because it was shown to be utter bullshit (e.g. university of Lincoln study). But as we crap in our nest the same protectionist farmers in europe who pushed that line and fueled the debate will have a go at other areas.

Agree on the software thing, but our industry has a long way to go to get close to the other industries that either involve flying meat or related products out of this country or meat into this country (tourisim). Loving that sinking NZ dollar though, yay for off-shore contracts in USD.