Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby iodi on Tue 5/May/09 5:38pm

As usual with this sort of issue, the battle lines are drawn around whether one takes the scientific or the religious side. However, to do so misses the point of the court case.

The Establishment Clause of the US Constitution’s First Amendment prohibits establishment of a national or state religion by the Federal or any State Government including any of their representatives (eg. teachers in publically funded schools). Further, the clause has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to mean that “government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion”. That is, the Government is required by the Constitution to maintain a neutral position regarding religion.

In this case, the teacher expressed a preference for the scientific (irreligious) position over the religious position. Therefore, by not remaining neutral, the teacher clearly violated the Constitution.

The teacher is also clearly correct, but that's not what the case is about.
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Tue 5/May/09 5:51pm

If that's the case, and science is to be considered commensurate with religious belief, then they are fucked. How do you teach science without expressing a preference for its findings over mythological or religious dogma?
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby Henry Dorset Case on Tue 5/May/09 6:08pm

E Dogg Capizzle wrote:If that's the case, and science is to be considered commensurate with religious belief, then they are fucked. How do you teach science without expressing a preference for its findings over mythological or religious dogma?


thats the myth of neutrality innit. Those schools in Kentucky or wherever got around this by saying "but evolution is a theory, right?" and here is a competing theory, we're calling it the Flying Spaghetti Monster. they're both "Theories" right, so they both should have equal credence, and be taught at state schools. Of course that does a grave disservice to what a scientific theory actually is, and by extension the whole of the Enlightenment, scientific method, and five hundred years of progress, but thats the sort of weasel word fucktard they're up against. Plus of course the "Theory" of Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism isn't a theory in the same sense that the "theory" of evolution is: because one of the basic tenets of the scientific method is that if something consistently does not fit your hypothesis, then the hypothesis must be changed. Of course the Flying Spaghetti Monster hypothesis holds that NO MATTER WHAT, the basic tenets (that there is in fact a monster made of spaghetti, which flies, and which created the heavings and the urth and all within) CANNOT BE CHANGED. It bears the same relation to an actual scientific theory as my Lor degree does.

I think what I am trying to say is



Religion is fucked up.
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Tue 5/May/09 6:18pm

Worse, given Iodi's interpretation surely their education system should not discriminate between irreligious views because there is as much diversity there as there is amongst religious views. Flat Earth Society ftw!
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby phunk on Tue 5/May/09 6:25pm

Its just another of those american things that beggars belief. They really should change their interpretation of the consitution.
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby iodi on Tue 5/May/09 6:36pm

phunk wrote:Its just another of those american things that beggars belief. They really should change their interpretation of the consitution.

There's the guts - the court's ruling follows directly from the current interpretation of the Constitution. There will be no progress on issues like this until either the Constitution or its interpretation changes to be based on rationality rather than mumbo-jumbo.
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby CrustyMTB on Tue 5/May/09 8:30pm

iodi wrote:
phunk wrote:Its just another of those american things that beggars belief. They really should change their interpretation of the consitution.

There's the guts - the court's ruling follows directly from the current interpretation of the Constitution. There will be no progress on issues like this until either the Constitution or its interpretation changes to be based on rationality rather than mumbo-jumbo.
The constitution is ok, it's the interpretation of it which is the problem. The major issue is having a supreme court where appointments are made on political grounds...

Anyway creationism isn't Christian doctrine, My family are mostly Jebus freaks and they are all Darwinists...

Fucking dumb Yanks, thank Allah the Chinese will be taking over soon...
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Wed 6/May/09 5:52pm

Chris Matthews is a bit of a chump, but every so often he scores a hit:

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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby Bigfoot on Wed 6/May/09 5:58pm

Nice.
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby nzmatto on Wed 6/May/09 6:06pm

""Anyway creationism isn't Christian doctrine, My family are mostly Jebus freaks and they are all Darwinists.""


ummmm


how can this be? would it not be like an atheist saying they cant help it God made them that way?

I'm proud to be a Jesus freak, but this argument is not about either end, it is about the rights one person has to discount another's belief.
This is kind of weird. Your not allowed to say the other person is wrong. What the hell happened to free speech?

(edited to fix bad spelling)
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby Wobbler on Wed 6/May/09 6:08pm

you're
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Wed 6/May/09 6:14pm

nzmatto wrote:""Anyway creationism isn't Christian doctrine, My family are mostly Jebus freaks and they are all Darwinists.""


ummmm


how can this be? would it not be like an atheist saying they cant help it God made them that way?



It's called "theistic evolution": some Christians claim that evolution was the means by which God created us, and that Genesis is only metaphorical. It's utterly bogus of course.
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby Bigfoot on Wed 6/May/09 6:16pm

It's no use, it's turtles all the way down!
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby Henry Dorset Case on Wed 6/May/09 6:21pm

aren't there elephants under the turtles? no, wait, I think the earth is flat, and its held up by elephants, and the elephants are standing on a turtles back, yes?
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Re: Teacher Breaches Constitution Calling Creationism Nonsense

Postby phunk on Wed 6/May/09 8:52pm

nzmatto wrote:
I'm proud to be a Jesus freak, but this argument is not about either end, it is about the rights one person has to discount another's belief.
This is kind of weird. Your not allowed to say the other person is wrong. What the hell happened to free speech?


I can tell you your beliefs are wrong, because they are. That is free speech.
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