Hi all,

Couple of questions about sleeping bags, liners and bivvy bags coming up.

But first, my particular situation. I've got a relatively heavy and bulky synthetic bag (rated to -5c apparently) that i use in a bivvy bag when out in winter. I was actually in the bag (no bivvy) last night at 12c and was slightly cold so i doubt that rating value (unless its the extreme). Anyway, i'm looking to reduce the weight/bulk whilst obviously keeping the warmth and i was thinking of reviving my old Field & Trek down bag (moonlite model) in it's place.

The down bag was bought in '93 and has been stored for the majority of it's life in it's stuff sack. I know this isn't good for it but due to space constraints open and bulky has never really been an option. When bought it was a decent bag and is 1100gm duck and goose down - that's all the label says, i can find nothing about it on the web and F&T do not have any info. It doesn't appear to be dirty (the down is not clumpy) but obviously the loft has gone from it and i plan to put it a tumble dryer to hopefully give it an air and the chance to loft-out.

So firstly my question would be how much insulation/effect would a down bag like this lose over this time and how comparable (generally) would it be with a synthetic model as described above?

Secondly, if i were to use a down bag in a bivvy bag (zipped up) would condensation be enough of an issue to worry about with regard to it getting wet and losing its insulation properties?

And lastly - are liners really any good? Apart from keeping the bags cleaner do they live up to the expectations of adding enough warmth to justify the extra weight? And how do silk liners compare to fleece or to specialised liners like the Sea2Summit reactor thermolite? Or as i carry light thermals would putting these on negate any benefit from one?

Thanks for any info,

Elcaro.

Elcaro wrote:So firstly my question would be how much insulation/effect would a down bag like this lose over this time and how comparable (generally) would it be with a synthetic model as described above?

has it been used much - apart from being stored compressed, it may have lost a lot of loft simply because it's dirty if it's well used. Give it a wash and tumble dry and you may be amazed how well it bounces back (my down jacket which I just about live in over winter is like that - start thinking it's knackered, then wash it and it bounces back to it's former glory)

Secondly, if i were to use a down bag in a bivvy bag (zipped up) would condensation be enough of an issue to worry about with regard to it getting wet and losing its insulation properties?

to an extent yes - really depends if you're going to be bivying night and after night - for one/two nights out it'd just be a matter of drying the bag back out when you get back to civilisation, if you're talking about 14 nights straight different story

of course if it rains and your bivy bag leaks it's gonna be bad

And lastly - are liners really any good?

hate em with a passion - they always end up tied around me strangling me! I'd rather wear insulation (thermals or fleece pants/top if it's really nasty). Down booties too

danose wrote:has it been used much - apart from being stored compressed, it may have lost a lot of loft simply because it's dirty if it's well used. Give it a wash and tumble dry and you may be amazed how well it bounces back...

No, it's not been used that much to be honest and i would think it's relatively clean. I'll tumble dry it with tennis balls as that seems heaps easier than washing as a start and see if it 'poofs' up okay - or do you actually need to wash it to start that process? Can't remember what it was like originally but went to a shop today to view some bags and it's nowhere near as fluffy as those so it'll be interesting to see...

danose wrote:... for one/two nights out it'd just be a matter of drying the bag back out when you get back to civilisation, if you're talking about 14 nights straight different story. Of course if it rains and your bivy bag leaks it's gonna be bad

Thanks. To begin with it's going to be a few nights at a time so that sounds good. It'll be stored inside the bivvy inside a waterproof bag inside my pack so should be pretty well protected from the elements.

danose wrote:hate em with a passion - they always end up tied around me strangling me! I'd rather wear insulation (thermals or fleece pants/top if it's really nasty). Down booties too

Good to know opinions and yea, i've read about getting caught up in liners. But i do find it hard getting into thermals inside a mummy shaped bag! I do want to keep weight to a minimum though...

I used to have a cotton liner just for keeping the bag clean but don't know where it went, never really had a problem with it though and it wasn't used in very cold conditions. Just came across http://www.blizzardsurvival.com and their bags look amazing especially given the weight but i'd have to question their re usability though...

Cheers,

.Elcaro.

Just try the down bag out and see how it goes. If not lumpy then it should be fine. If lumpy or dirty get it clean by Mr Velvet on Lincoln Rd (if you are in CHCH) as they were recommended by Macpac for their sleeping bags. They wash and dry it properly so it is like new for $20 or so which is a bargin compared to mucking around washing in bathtub,etc at home. Have had my old down bag washed once or twice and it comes back like new (ditto for down jackets).
I use a ripstop silk liner and rate them for a bit extra warmth and keeping skin oils, blood from cut up body (from bush bashing/climbing) from damaging/dirty the bag.
I have bivyed in open pits and in tents on glaciers, and snow caved a fair few times on my old down bag so have actually been out there in the elements I guess (alpine tramper rather than a climber these days). Most times if I travel light by myself I just take my 150gram down summer bag, waterproof bivy bag and a 3/4 thermolite pad (if going silly light just use 2mm polyform wrap material off new TV's etc as a insulation pad, actually works well but not comfy), and normally the silk liner, also just wear my clothes inside the bag if get cold.

Also some people are warm sleepers and some people are cold sleepers. While I can use a very light weight summer bag for most conditions I know experienced outdor people who buy a winter bag and get more down put in because they are cold sleepers. Remember eat something before bed to keep fueling the warmth. Also by breathing inside your bag you save something like ??% (it is double figures) warmth by not having to warm the air you breath but have to watch compensation.
If you are doing multiday bivys etc in snow then suggest a modern 3D type synthetic bag for when things start getting quite wet. That blizzardbag thing would be good for survival and great for the bumbag emergency kit when out mountain running or hunting but I don't think you would get a good nights sleep in it.

Going light is ok but then again a heavy bag is more comfy and provides a better sleep.

Baffling and type of down will make a big difference in loft so maybe that is what the new bags have and yours does not.

Elcaro wrote:Good to know opinions and yea, i've read about getting caught up in liners. But i do find it hard getting into thermals inside a mummy shaped bag! I do want to keep weight to a minimum though...

getting in to them? I just never get out of them!!

All, thanks for the help so far.

Experimented last night with a setup of a A-format tarp cover (open ends and slightly open sides), 3/4 cell-foam mat + thin silver insulating mat on top, bivvy, down bag and silk liner. Clothing wise - underwear, tshirt and merino hat.

I thought it would be a good idea to keep the bottom of the bivvy/down bag inside the backpack to help keep me on the insulting pad as i tend to move my feet around a bit and end up off the insulating mat, but when i woke up the foot section was pretty sodden (i'd also put in inside the backpack liner) so that was excellent to make that mistake at home! The reality is that as i will not get any time to air out the bag during the day (it'll just be stuffed away & pulled out the next night) i obviously won't be doing that again!

It got down to 5c last night but i was pretty comfortable overall, just woke once around 0300 and tightened the part of the sleeping bag that closes around the shoulder. The only other thing was that as I slept with my head outside the bivvy i was chilled by wind on the face - perhaps a balaclava might be in order especially on colder/windier nights! But i did end up buying a silk liner and had no problems with it - in fact i actually found it made it easier for me to turn inside the sleeping bag.

.Elcaro.

So, another quick update.

Was in Hastings over the weekend in the Gwavas Forest and it was freezing! In the morning, ice had formed on the outside of the bivvy but the bag itself stayed dry. However, my feet were freezing for a good 12 hours on Saturday evening/night (must look into down socks/booties).

However, this question is to ask if anyone knows of a good careful cleaner for down bags in the Wellington area (i know sickman referenced Mr Velvet in CHCH). I think i'll try and get it cleaned properly (especially if around the $20 mark) before thinking of spending on a newer bag...

Thanks,

.Elcaro.

My down bag got soaked while biking the Queen Charlotte Track an couple of years ago. Took it to Agitator cleaners on Elizabeth street in Mt Vic. Came back as good as new. I think the price was pretty reasonable as well - $20-30.

Front loading washer, and put in a dryer with some tennis balls = good as new.

DBR - thanks for that!

Bigfoot - yea, i've done that and it puffed up okay. I was just thinking that perhaps a wash and dry might refresh it up a bit more? Or am i mistaken?

Cheers,

.Elcaro.

I've spend literally years living in sleeping bags, in 2002 I spent over 300 nights on the ground in a bivvy bag and tarp setup - some prick stole my tent and as a climbing bum you just make do. You learn pretty quickly not to roll around much in your sleep. My bivvy bag started de laminating after a trip to Yosemite and I took it back to macpac and after a month I called them to see if they would warranty it. They laughed and said they'd thrown it out it was so worn out. It was worth a try Anyway.

10+ years of storage in a compression sack will have fuxxored the loft in your bag. Guaranteed. That doesn't mean its useless just not as good as it once was. For use over multiple nights ventilation is key. Wet down is heavy and useless.

I've done the old tumble dryer with tennis balls things many times and can confirm that a trip through Master Valet is a much better option in terms of getting your back lofting again.

A silk inner sheet is a must for multi day trips, you'd be amazed how much dirt you wash out of them - dirt which isn't going into your bag.

My usual set up is a thin 3/4 length thermarest, down bag and silk inner sheet. If you're sleeping on snow a short length of closed cell foam can be good for your feet, or you can rip the padding out of the back of your pack. I don't sleep in much clothing - down is a far better insulator than your other clothes so it makes more sense to have that next to your skin.

Humidity is a big factor too. Very cold climates are awesome because water never reaches liquid phase so it's easy to keep dry and warm. More humid climes with milder temperatures require good ventilation (ie just a tarp over a full bivvy bag, or no cover at all) or synthetics.

For cold feet: Boil water, put in Nalgene bottle, cover with a sock and throw it in the foot of your bag.

Just an update for those thinking of using Agitator cleaners in Wellington. Went to collect the bag at the weekend and it was sealed up in a plastic bag. Didn't look particularily 'lofted' so opened it up there to find a hidden rip in the fabric and loose down around (i wonder how much has been lost?) - not only that but it was still damp. Doesn't seem whoever cleaned the bag really bothered with it or they didn't know how to treat a down bag - and this after assurances that they knew how to handle it. Not a good initial impression.

Anyway, not surprisingly they apologised and i've left it with them for remedial work but suspect i may be claiming on their insurance. I will provide another update when i go back this weekend.

So now a simple question about a replacement - given my initial post with the information that the only information on it is "1100gm duck and goose down" what would be a bag (from an NZ supplier) if i were to source a similar replacement?

Cheers,

.Elcaro.

Why put tennis balls in the drier with the bag ? My Macpac Superlite is so lofty would would be filling the drier so can't see what the balls would do.

Apparently the tennis balls assist with breaking up clumps of down that is stuck together from the washing process (or getting wet/damp/grubby) etc... that's the theory behind including them. I guess it's similar to the tumble-dryer balls you now see for sale around the place.

.Elcaro.

So, got the bag back from the laundromat today. They actually did an okay job in stitching the bag although it's easy to see that its a botch-job. Feels like a fair bit of down has been lost from the section - luckily this is right at the top of the bag where it'd be clinched up around the head/neck.

However, they still hadn't dried it properly and stated their machines were too hot - i suspect they didn't want to risk the stitching coming undone if they put it through the drier. For those who've used them with no problems, great, but overall this is a big warning to those thinking of using them - i certainly won't be again.

Now the result of all this (a wash and dry) is that the bag is slightly more lofted before - i'm yet to test it though!

.Elcaro.