A Quantum Leap #3 - The Avanti Design Technology Process

Postby Oli on Fri 15/Aug/08 8:12am

We were shown into yet another seminar room where I just about tripped on my tongue as we were surrounded by Cadents, Quantums, as well as Pista track bikes, Time Trial bikes and other fruity offerings. Stephen James ran the proceedings as he gave us a run down of the process that led to this latest platform of road bikes. Stephen began by running over some of the incredible successes of riders on Avanti bikes in the last few years, such as the Olympic Golds of Sarah Ulmer and Hamish Carter, the silver of Bevan Docherty, the World Omnium Championship of Hayden Godfrey, the many National Championships across road, triathlon, track, XC mountainbiking and BMX both here and in Australia, as well as the great work done by the Avanti sponsored Subway Team. Four of the NZ Olympic Triathlon Team are riding on custom painted Avantis in Beijing, and are sending great feedback to NZ about them. These successes were both drivers of and driven by the desire to get the Avanti name to the forefront of the sport.

Image


Stephen then talked about the design process that eventually led to the Cadent and Quantum. The Italian word Avanti means literally “moving aheadâ€
Oli
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Postby sifter on Fri 15/Aug/08 8:52am

Nice work Avanti. Cheers for the great words Oli :)
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Postby OneTrackMind on Fri 15/Aug/08 10:36am

Any word on what software they use for modelling their frames?
Did they mention who makes their frames in Taiwan? Same factory as Specialized/Cervelo/Felt/Scott etc ?
Any mention of how close their frames are to bigger brands with bigger budgets? (such as Scott for its light weight Addict ... BMC for stiffness etc?).

All looks very interesting.
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Postby Oli on Fri 15/Aug/08 10:42am

Sorry, don't know about the computers.

Don't know which factory either, but I do know that Avanti designed, paid for and own their exclusive molds.

While not privy to any specific comparative data as regards stiffness etc., the frames are directly comparable with all their competition as far as those numbers go.

The Quantum Team frame weight is a very competitive without being silly light 920g.
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Postby businesstime on Fri 15/Aug/08 10:45am

Yeah well they might make good bikes but the company itself need so sort there shit out.
i got jerked around by them big time recently with a crack in my frame. The did all the could to try and get out of it but i stuck by my guns and won. They reluctantly warranteed it. This sort of business does no one favours. I quickly sold the new frame on trademe and purchased another brand i was so pissed off.

Just my 2c worth.
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Postby slidecontrol on Fri 15/Aug/08 11:03am

Oli wrote: but I do know that Avanti designed, paid for and own their exclusive molds.

While not privy to any specific comparative data as regards stiffness etc., the frames are directly comparable with all their competition as far as those numbers go.

The Quantum Team frame weight is a very competitive without being silly light 920g.


that makes me smile ( in a good way). I like it when a bike brand does its own design.
Its been a bugbear of mine when brands have plastered frames with fancy sounding acronyms and development claims, when the frames have come straight from the Martec et-al catalog. ( theres nothing wrong with the martec or others, just brands who pretend they did the hard stuff )


keep up the good work avanti :thumbsup:


(flame away)
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Postby jeremyb on Fri 15/Aug/08 11:38am

I still can't get excited about an Avanti, tall poppy or historical horriblenesses?
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Postby VERT on Fri 15/Aug/08 12:27pm

Avanti does nothing for me either, they have a history of boring bikes.

Perhaps they should stop making MTBs and concentrate on roadbikes, it looks like it might best direction for them
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Postby Trail on Fri 15/Aug/08 12:33pm

jeremyb wrote: I still can't get excited about an Avanti, tall poppy or historical horriblenesses?


They did come from quite crappy beginnings... and while the bikes have not been awe inspiring along the way, they have been very good value for money.

I have an Avanti Competitor that I have thrashed for many years and it is still going. To me they are just another brand of bike... but for the right parts of the market I think they are still a good choice.
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Postby MB on Fri 15/Aug/08 2:27pm

OneTrackMind wrote: Any word on what software they use for modelling their frames?
Did they mention who makes their frames in Taiwan? Same factory as Specialized/Cervelo/Felt/Scott etc ?
Any mention of how close their frames are to bigger brands with bigger budgets? (such as Scott for its light weight Addict ... BMC for stiffness etc?).
.


In a similar vein...

Oli - thanks, interesting. Any indications if the guys from Avanti had input into the laminates, or was that done by the factory (who presumably also did the testing)?

Slightly related trivia for those obsessed with stiffness (ahem)..... To validate some CAD/FEA/optimisation we did some simple front triangle torsional stiffness testing on some frames last year, anybody care to hazard a guess at ranking this random collection from stiffest to most like a noodle...

- 1970s? Healing 10spd
- Mid 1980s Raleigh, 531C lugged steel
- Late 1990s Cannondale CAAD3 Aluminium
- Scott CR1

Guesses?
MB
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Postby Spyder on Fri 15/Aug/08 3:30pm

MB wrote: Slightly related trivia for those obsessed with stiffness (ahem)..... To validate some CAD/FEA/optimisation we did some simple front triangle torsional stiffness testing on some frames last year, anybody care to hazard a guess at ranking this random collection from stiffest to most like a noodle...

- 1970s? Healing 10spd
- Mid 1980s Raleigh, 531C lugged steel
- Late 1990s Cannondale CAAD3 Aluminium
- Scott CR1

Guesses?


No-one else brave (stupid?) enough to have a go??
Noodlelike - 70's Healing
-CR1
-80's Raleigh
Un-noodlelike - CADD3
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Postby slidecontrol on Fri 15/Aug/08 3:44pm

just to be different but the same

70's Healing
-80's Raleigh
-CR1
-CAAD3



put us out of our misery quickly :cool:
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Postby Joel on Fri 15/Aug/08 3:56pm

slidecontrol wrote: just to be different but the same

70's Healing
-80's Raleigh
-CR1
-CAAD3



put us out of our misery quickly :cool:


yeah agree with that lineup
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Postby OliverBendix on Fri 15/Aug/08 4:09pm

MB wrote:
- 1970s? Healing 10spd
- Mid 1980s Raleigh, 531C lugged steel
- Late 1990s Cannondale CAAD3 Aluminium
- Scott CR1

Guesses?


I guess that the Healing is surprisingly stiff, those things are built like tanks and the tube walls have got to be about 2mm or more thick. I'd go:

Stiffish end:
Cannondale
Healing
Scott
Raleigh
Noodlish end.
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Postby MB on Fri 15/Aug/08 4:11pm

Joel wrote:
slidecontrol wrote: just to be different but the same

70's Healing
-80's Raleigh
-CR1
-CAAD3

put us out of our misery quickly :cool:


yeah agree with that lineup


And the prize goes to Oliver.... engineering geeks rule. :cool:

Torsional stiffness, with measured frame weight following (all but
Raleigh included headset cups):

Noodle: Raleigh: 68 Nm/deg, 1.85 kg
Sort of stiff, but light: Scott: 160 Nm/deg, 0.92kg
Stiffer, but really, really heavy: Healing: 194 Nm/deg, 3.2kg
Only just a little bit more stiff: Cannondale: 197 Nm/deg, 1.36kg

So the Healing almost bet the Can-of-nails... and is significantly stiffer than the CR1 - surprised? You shouldn't be...

Cheap steel frames have to use very thick walled tubes to be strong enough, but in general changing the alloy and heat treatment of metals does not significantly change the modulus (stiffness), just the strength. So a higher strength steel just lets you make it thinner without breaking, but you lose stiffness. Some can be recouped by making the tubes bigger, which is why some steels eventually became available in oversize tubes. End of lecture...

Wonder what an old Avanti Sprint is like?

Next time someone tells you that they are so big and tough that they
had to buy the latest superstiff composite frame (from Avanti or whoever, to get back on topic), tell them they should have gone and got a Healing 10spd instead! Or not. Assuming that torsional stiffness matters at all, which is another question again....

Back to normal programming.

Mark.
MB
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