Which proposed road law changes do you support?

Lower the legal blood alcohol limit from 80mg per 100ml to 50mg per 100ml.
45
52%
Leave the alcohol limit and increase the severity of penalties for drink drivers.
36
42%
Raise the driving age to 16 or 17 and the learner licence period from six to 12 months.
63
73%
Introduce a zero alcohol limit for drivers under 20.
65
76%
Roadside drug testing.
46
53%
Compulsory third-party insurance.
74
86%
Upgrade black spots to make them safer.
38
44%
Change the give-way rule for turning traffic. Traffic turning right would have to give way to traffic turning left into the same road.
44
51%
Create more 80km and 90km zones on high-risk rural roads.
28
33%
More speed cameras and red light cameras.
30
35%
Higher demerit points for speeding.
29
34%
Publish the safety ratings of heavy vehicle operators.
37
43%
Make it an offence to drive while fatigued.
19
22%
 
Total voters : 86

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby crazychris on Thu 20/Aug/09 2:36pm

znomit wrote:The problem with this rule is it changes when there is a give way(becomes a controlled intersection). It can be difficult to tell if the other car is on a give way or not.

iodi wrote:What about the other giveway-to-the-right rule that is peculiar to NZ: two vehicles turning right at an uncontrolled T-intersection. Most drivers are either oblivious to, or blatantly ignore, this rule.

especially so when so many cars roll over the lines anyway. I think I must be the only person in the country who stops his car behind the lines at an intersection rather than a meter over them (with the mandatory slow creep forward while waiting for the lights to change or intersection to clear)
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Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby DogsBollocks on Thu 20/Aug/09 2:39pm

RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.


If the rules weren't clear and easy to understand no-one would get a licence to drive as they wouldn't pass the test. If you have a licence then you obviously clearly understand the rule so it's not you that has the issue, it's other road users. It's the small percentage of drivers who think they know better/ignore the rule/don't care that are making this an issue. Don't make a change when the majority of users arent affected. Either re train or eliminate (in some cases self elimination) those who won't/can't follow the rules. Once everyone has got a grip then do the tweaking.

I know I'm looking at this with a rose tint but I can't help thinking if we can't all understand what we have now, what carnage will occur when we start making drastic changes.
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Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby DogsBollocks on Thu 20/Aug/09 2:41pm

crazychris wrote:
znomit wrote:The problem with this rule is it changes when there is a give way(becomes a controlled intersection). It can be difficult to tell if the other car is on a give way or not.

iodi wrote:What about the other giveway-to-the-right rule that is peculiar to NZ: two vehicles turning right at an uncontrolled T-intersection. Most drivers are either oblivious to, or blatantly ignore, this rule.

especially so when so many cars roll over the lines anyway. I think I must be the only person in the country who stops his car behind the lines at an intersection rather than a meter over them (with the mandatory slow creep forward while waiting for the lights to change or intersection to clear)


Yeah but you are a cyclist who thinks about not sticking your nose into the cycle lane ;) :thumbsup:
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Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby RJD on Thu 20/Aug/09 2:44pm

thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.
RJD
Member for: 9 years 5 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby DogsBollocks on Thu 20/Aug/09 2:53pm

RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.


Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.
DogsBollocks
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Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby thorg on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:03pm

RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

then give way. everything else you posted is assumption of a situation that might eventuate.

IF the car behind you DOES over take you, then once they are blocking the right turning trafics path you can turn left. Making assumptions that this will/might/could happen is complicating a simple rule.
thorg
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Member for: 13 years 5 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby RJD on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:10pm

DogsBollocks wrote:Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


Impatient, me? Somtimes, like most other people, you can argue all you like but I see this rule being misunderstood daily on the roads.
RJD
Member for: 9 years 5 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby dbr18210 on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:11pm

DogsBollocks wrote:
Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


You are wrong.

From NZ road code

You are turning left, so you must give way to vehicles coming towards you and turning right.

Picture of a car giving way when turning left at an uncontrolled intersection

Note: be aware of the traffic behind you. If you were in the blue car (turning left), vehicles travelling behind you may affect whether the truck (turning right) can turn or not.
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Member for: 9 years 3 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby Chickenman on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:12pm

DogsBollocks wrote:
RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.


Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


Fair enough then.

So what if I'm the car turning right? I see an oncoming car turning left in front of me, so I have right of way. But there is a car behind him wanting to go straight, so I do I wait for him to continue straight through (even though he may have squeeze around the other car illegally) or do I turn across his path?

As you have said, I'm only looking at the cars in front of me.

If NZ followed the rest of the world, I would just instinctively give way.
Chickenman
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Member for: 15 years 4 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby thorg on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:15pm

Chickenman wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:
RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.


Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


Fair enough then.

So what if I'm the car turning right? I see an oncoming car turning left in front of me, so I have right of way. But there is a car behind him wanting to go straight, so I do I wait for him to continue straight through (even though he may have squeeze around the other car illegally) or do I turn across his path?

As you have said, I'm only looking at the cars in front of me.

If NZ followed the rest of the world, I would just instinctively give way.
the left turning car is irrelivant to your decision as you have right of way. proceed to make your turn if the way is clear, otherwise, giveway.
thorg
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Member for: 13 years 5 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby thorg on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:17pm

dbr18210 wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:
Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


You are wrong.

From NZ road code

You are turning left, so you must give way to vehicles coming towards you and turning right.

Picture of a car giving way when turning left at an uncontrolled intersection

Note: be aware of the traffic behind you. If you were in the blue car (turning left), vehicles travelling behind you may affect whether the truck (turning right) can turn or not.
nope, he is still right. I MAY effect, the left turnig car must still giveway. until such time as the straight ahead vehicle is physically blocking the right turning car from making their turn, GIVE WAY!

yes, it is a stupid rule

yes, it should be changed.

no it is not complicated.
thorg
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Member for: 13 years 5 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby Chickenman on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:21pm

thorg wrote:
Chickenman wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:
RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.


Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


Fair enough then.

So what if I'm the car turning right? I see an oncoming car turning left in front of me, so I have right of way. But there is a car behind him wanting to go straight, so I do I wait for him to continue straight through (even though he may have squeeze around the other car illegally) or do I turn across his path?

As you have said, I'm only looking at the cars in front of me.

If NZ followed the rest of the world, I would just instinctively give way.
the left turning car is irrelivant to your decision as you have right of way. proceed to make your turn if the way is clear, otherwise, giveway.

But at the time of making the decision, the way is clear. I'm making the assumption that the straight ahead travelling car will wait patiently behind the left turning car.

Personally, I'd rather not take that risk, especially if I'm on my bike.
Last edited by Chickenman on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chickenman
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Member for: 15 years 4 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby DogsBollocks on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:21pm

Chickenman wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:
RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.


Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


Fair enough then.

So what if I'm the car turning right? I see an oncoming car turning left in front of me, so I have right of way. But there is a car behind him wanting to go straight, so I do I wait for him to continue straight through (even though he may have squeeze around the other car illegally) or do I turn across his path?

As you have said, I'm only looking at the cars in front of me.

If NZ followed the rest of the world, I would just instinctively give way.


You make an informed, intelligent decision based on that facts as they are placed in front of you. Reacting to things before they happen is what gets us in the shit. You can't allow for the ineptitude of others, you can however react to it.
And you can't do something instinctivly that is not the norm, you have to be retrained 1st ;)
DogsBollocks
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Member for: 9 years 7 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby Chickenman on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:23pm

DogsBollocks wrote:
Chickenman wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:
RJD wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJD wrote:
DogsBollocks wrote:But they are clear, otherwise people wouldn't be bitching about them. They are rules, they are in the road code and the only reasons they don't work is human error


There, that's the point, yes there clear, but there complex and leaves 4 or more divers making assumptions about what other drivers are making assumptions about. In situations that don't leave a lot of time to think things through.

You need the rules to be simple so anyone can make a quick, correct, decision at the time.
the rule IS simple. if you are turning left, give way to trafic coming across you path from the right. simple.


Thats unrealistic.

I'm turning left.
Theres an oncoming car turning right.

I should give way.

But theres a car behind me, he can get past (prehaps?) so the oncoming car may not turn, so hey I can!

Theoncoming car has a car behind them too, but they dont know if the car infront can turn or not, they have right of way but may not be able to due to the oncoming car going straight on.

And that car's not sure if the car in front will turn, or the car turing right will go or not.

Add on to that your supposed to pull over to the left if its busy (to turn right) and the dual carridgeway stuff and its a nightmare.

I understand the rule, I've driven in other countries ( 300k+ miles in the UK) and in LHD countries (lived in Spain for 3 years), this is the single dumbest rule I've encountered.


Impatient much ? The rule does not allow for those behind you as they are irrellevant. Just take your time and worry about what's in front of you, as those behind you are.


Fair enough then.

So what if I'm the car turning right? I see an oncoming car turning left in front of me, so I have right of way. But there is a car behind him wanting to go straight, so I do I wait for him to continue straight through (even though he may have squeeze around the other car illegally) or do I turn across his path?

As you have said, I'm only looking at the cars in front of me.

If NZ followed the rest of the world, I would just instinctively give way.


And you can't do something instinctivly that is not the norm, you have to be retrained 1st ;)


It was very easy to pick up whilst driving around europe and the UK a couple of years ago.
Chickenman
User avatar
Member for: 15 years 4 months

Re: Proposed Road Law Changes - What Do You Like?

Postby thorg on Thu 20/Aug/09 3:26pm

Chickenman wrote:But at the time of making the decision, the way is clear. I'm making the assumption that the straight ahead travelling car will wait patiently behind the left turning car.

Personally, I'd rather not take that risk, especially if I'm on my bike.
you have defeated your own arguement. As you say, the way is only clear based upon your assumption of anothers drivers actions (and yes, in pure semantics so is every decision, but you know what I mean).

Consider if the left turning vehicle was not there - would it be safe to turn right in front of that oncoming vehicle? do not assume they will even slow for the left turning vehicle, until you see them stationary, or in a position that they can no longer hit you - give way.
thorg
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"what blog?"
Member for: 13 years 5 months

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