Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby philstar on Sat 29/Mar/14 4:15pm

Klarkash-ton wrote:oops, pressed submit instead of preview.

so does 2.3 prohibit crossing the no-passing line or is "use of lane' more than just crossing the line?


yes I think that covers it, and in no way contradicts 2.9(2)
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Barbsarama on Sat 29/Mar/14 4:48pm

To be fair, of course I would prefer all vehicle drivers to wait until it is safe and legal to pass, yet as most don't, my second preference is for them to cross the yellow line safely than try to squeeze past me without crossing the yellow line in order to stay on the right side of the law...
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Simonius_Titius on Sat 29/Mar/14 5:08pm

In 2.3 "use" must must mean more than just momentarily crossing the line, otherwise the other clauses re yellow lines are redundant.

Also, the lack of any specific provisions for all the various other reasons one needs to cross a yellow line shows that the restriction is only for the two cases stated i.e. while passing animal-drawn and motorised vehicles.

It is legal to cross the yellow line while passing an animal which is riding a vehicle.
Allowing crossing of the yellow line works in favour of cyclists and horseists, so it would be good to get this publicised more widely and for the Road Code to be fixed.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby philstar on Sat 29/Mar/14 5:46pm

Simonius_Titius wrote:In 2.3 "use" must must mean more than just momentarily crossing the line, otherwise the other clauses re yellow lines are redundant.

wrong! unless you are talking about some clauses not mentioned previously (eg 2.3 2.6 and 2.9)?
2.9 is a clarification, you can pass on a no passing line provided "keeps the vehicle wholly to the left of the no-passing line" this is not redundant ti just clarifies what is meant by no-passing.

Also, the lack of any specific provisions for all the various other reasons one needs to cross a yellow line shows that the restriction is only for the two cases stated i.e. while passing animal-drawn and motorised vehicles.


wrong agian in the same way, 2.9 is not a restriction, it is an exemption that allows passing.


It is legal to cross the yellow line while passing an animal which is riding a vehicle.
Allowing crossing of the yellow line works in favour of cyclists and horseists, so it would be good to get this publicised more widely and for the Road Code to be fixed.


wrong again, it does not work in favor of cyclists, if some one passes over a yellow line and an on-coming vehicle appears they will swerve and hit the cyclist (or have a head on with the vehicle which will most probably take out the cyclist worse)
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Simonius_Titius on Sat 29/Mar/14 8:06pm

I rest my case, not being a legal guy. Can anyone workign in the field help us out?

Also, does RAW trump RAI in law? (Rules As Written vs Rules As Intended)

Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004

2.3 Use of lanes
(1) A driver, when driving, must not use—
<editorial snip>
(d) a lane to the driver's right of a no-passing line; or ...


2.9 Passing where roadway marked with no-passing line
(1)This clause applies if a driver is at or approaching a portion of a roadway where the road controlling authority has, in accordance with any enactment, marked a no-passing line applying to traffic moving in the direction in which the driver is moving.
(2)The driver must not pass or attempt to pass a motor vehicle or an animal-drawn vehicle moving in the same direction within the length of roadway on which the no-passing line is marked until the driver reaches the further end of the no-passing line, unless throughout the passing movement the driver keeps the vehicle wholly to the left of the no-passing line.
Last edited by Simonius_Titius on Sat 29/Mar/14 11:01pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby znomit on Sat 29/Mar/14 10:11pm

I thought there was some sort of get out of jail free clause where you could cross the yellow lines if it seemed like a good idea at at the time.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Simonius_Titius on Sat 29/Mar/14 10:53pm

znomit wrote:I thought there was some sort of get out of jail free clause where you could cross the yellow lines if it seemed like a good idea at at the time.


Yes so long as you can explain why it was "not practical" to keep left, and you comply with 2.9(2), 2.6, 2.3 and all other rules.

It is not feasible for the law to lock down the yellow line, as explained in my bit about UFOs etc above.
If 2.9 didn't appy and you were involved in an accident whilst over the line it would be difficult to escape the conclusion that you were in breach of some part of 2.6, but I don't see that you would be automatically guilty just by being over the line.

This is unrestful.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby briiii on Sun 30/Mar/14 6:02pm

The whole POINT of no passing lines is that they are an indication that a piece of road is not suitable for passing something if it means you have to cross the line.

Sure if something exceptional is obstructing the lane (a UFO, a fallen tree, a broken down car whatever) then you may have to cross the line to continue driving but a cyclist is not exactly an unusual thing to come across (depending on the cyclist obviously) and therefore passing one should just be considered as a standard situation and the law should be applied as with other vehicles.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Simonius_Titius on Sun 30/Mar/14 10:22pm

briiii wrote:The whole POINT of no passing lines is that they are an indication that a piece of road is not suitable for passing something if it means you have to cross the line.

Sure if something exceptional is obstructing the lane (a UFO, a fallen tree, a broken down car whatever) then you may have to cross the line to continue driving but a cyclist is not exactly an unusual thing to come across (depending on the cyclist obviously) and therefore passing one should just be considered as a standard situation and the law should be applied as with other vehicles.

That is what I thought too. But 2.9(2) must have some reason for being so specific when they could have just written "vehicle", which includes bicycles etc.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby philstar on Sun 30/Mar/14 11:02pm

Simonius_Titius wrote:If 2.9 didn't appy and you were involved in an accident whilst over the line


which part of 2.9 do you think gives permission to be over the yellow line?

Simonius_Titius wrote:it would be difficult to escape the conclusion that you were in breach of some part of 2.6, but I don't see that you would be automatically guilty just by being over the line.


it would be quite hard to be in breach of 2.6 and not being at fault (excluding the oncoming vehicle having excessive speed)
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Klarkash-ton on Mon 31/Mar/14 9:16am

znomit wrote:I thought there was some sort of get out of jail free clause where you could cross the yellow lines if it seemed like a good idea at at the time.

get out of jail free clauses are included in 2.3:
3. However, a driver may drive wholly or partly in a lane that is unavailable to the driver under subclause (1) or clause 4.6(2) to (4) if—
(a) it is impracticable to proceed otherwise because of—
(i) the size of the driver's vehicle; or
(ii) the size of the load on the driver's vehicle; or
(iii) a road obstruction; and
(b) driving in that lane can be done safely and without impeding other traffic.
3. A driver may also drive wholly or partly in a lane that is unavailable to the driver under subclause (1) or clause 4.6(2) to (4) if the driver—
(a) drives in the lane to cross it to—
(i) make a turn; or
(ii) leave a road; or
(iii) enter a marked lane or line of traffic from the side of the road; or
(iv) enter a marked lane or line of traffic from another marked lane; or
(v) park in a place clear of a special vehicle lane, if the lane that the driver crosses is a special vehicle lane; or
(vi) enter a specified stopping place or loading zone to pick up or drop off passengers or a load, if the driver is driving a passenger service vehicle or goods vehicle and the lane that the driver crosses is not reserved for a vehicle of that class; and
(b) drives in the lane for the minimum length necessary to complete the manoeuvre and for no more than a maximum length of 50 m; and
(c) gives way to vehicles entitled to use the lane
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby slidecontrol on Mon 31/Mar/14 10:08am

why do they bother with those lines then? :blink:
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Simonius_Titius on Mon 31/Mar/14 10:33am

slidecontrol wrote:why do they bother with those lines then? :blink:

So that in selected particularly dangerous places 2.9(2) can absolutely prohibit road users who want to pass motor vehicles and animal-drawn vehicles from having head-on mingles.
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby Klarkash-ton on Mon 31/Mar/14 12:36pm

back to the almost original point, does stationary traffic count as a road obstruction to a cyclist who can easily so round it, overtaking to the right as recommended (I can't remember where now...) and occasionally dodging into the prohibited lane for the minimum length of time (much less than 50m) while giving way to traffic entitled to use that lane?
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Re: Police Stopping Cyclists At The Bottom Of Ngaio Gorge?

Postby znomit on Mon 31/Mar/14 12:44pm

Why doesn't someone ask the policeman or policewoman at the bottom of Ngaio Gorge?
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