Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Trail on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:09am

Petrol.jpg
Interesting graph...

Makes me think that there might be a connection between cheap fuel and our countries transport trends.

Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby phunk on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:10am

Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:


No.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby pedalingkiwi on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:22am

trail asked "Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport??"

Yes
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby iodi on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:24am

Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:

That's really two quite separate questions:

1. Should the government tax us some more on the petrol? Answer: Maybe. There are sound arguments for taxing "bad" things like consumption of transportation resources, road congestion, etc rather than taxing "good" things like income.

2. put it back into public transport? Answer: No. The case of subsidising public transport needs to stand or fall on its own merit. There is no logical connection between the collection of petrol tax and the funding of public transport. Tax is tax - money is fungible, so saying that a specific tax is collecting money for a specific purpose is just a spurious connection, often used to make people feel better about paying tax.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby swtchbckr on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:38am

iodi wrote:
Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:

That's really two quite separate questions:

1. Should the government tax us some more on the petrol? Answer: Maybe. There are sound arguments for taxing "bad" things like consumption of transportation resources, road congestion, etc rather than taxing "good" things like income.

2. put it back into public transport? Answer: No. The case of subsidising public transport needs to stand or fall on its own merit. There is no logical connection between the collection of petrol tax and the funding of public transport. Tax is tax - money is fungible, so saying that a specific tax is collecting money for a specific purpose is just a spurious connection, often used to make people feel better about paying tax.


agreed.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby neels on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:40am

Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:

Not unless they are going to create a public transport system that is of use to me in everyday life, rather than assuming everybody wants to get from the suburbs to the central city.

A small increase in taxation would be acceptable build roads that actually get people where they want to go, as the reduced fuel consumption would probably negate the tax increase, and maybe reduce total fuel usage. Maybe?
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby bigJIMMY on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:41am

i remember having a very ignorant debate with a taxi driver in thailand about 5 years ago when i saw how cheap petrol was there. he reminded me that i was paying about $4nz to travel 1/2 an hour across town, and asked how much a similar journey would cost in my home country.

that graph means jack shit without taking salaries into account.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby mfw on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:43am

Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:

No.
I think public transport is doomed, and has no future :o

I believe personal transport is the future - single man cars run by computers that link them up like trains (for efficiency and green wave at traffic lights etc). The main thing is they take you door to door, or door to supermarket to door etc. That is where public transport is doomed, it will never be convenient no matter how much you spend on it. The only exception may be in the highest density cities.

These mini cars would be much smaller a normal car and so the current lanes could be split into two and would take much less parking space. These will not replace normal cars but just be used for the 95% of the time a car only needs to carry one person around the city.

That's my little masterplan and vision for the future anyway :D
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby thorg on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:48am

mfw wrote:
Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:

No.
I think public transport is doomed, and has no future :o

I believe personal transport is the future - single man cars run by computers that link them up like trains (for efficiency and green wave at traffic lights etc). The main thing is they take you door to door, or door to supermarket to door etc. That is where public transport is doomed, it will never be convenient no matter how much you spend on it. The only exception may be in the highest density cities.

These mini cars would be much smaller a normal car and so the current lanes could be split into two and would take much less parking space. These will not replace normal cars but just be used for the 95% of the time a car only needs to carry one person around the city.

That's my little masterplan and vision for the future anyway :D
OH NOES - A CITY FULL OF SEGWAYS :0
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Trail on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:54am

bigJIMMY wrote:that graph means jack shit without taking salaries into account.


How about a graph of how long you have to work to earn a big mac??
Mac.jpg


The UBS chart is in a .pdf document, but here’s The Economist’s representation of the UBS Big Mac data for selected economies (wtt. Paul Walker). Kiwis (often absent from Economist charts) have to work 19 minutes to afford a Mac.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby slowMTB on Wed 26/Aug/09 10:57am

mfw wrote:
Trail wrote:Should the government tax us some more on the petrol and put it back into public transport?? :butbut:

No.
I think public transport is doomed, and has no future :o

I believe personal transport is the future - single man cars run by computers that link them up like trains (for efficiency and green wave at traffic lights etc). The main thing is they take you door to door, or door to supermarket to door etc. That is where public transport is doomed, it will never be convenient no matter how much you spend on it. The only exception may be in the highest density cities.

These mini cars would be much smaller a normal car and so the current lanes could be split into two and would take much less parking space. These will not replace normal cars but just be used for the 95% of the time a car only needs to carry one person around the city.

That's my little masterplan and vision for the future anyway :D


You forgot to mention the little old grannies who struggle to cope with the current transportation structure. According to statistics there is going to be more of them in the future :blink:
Little cars on narrow lanes = mucho carnage :crazy:

Pedal cars - the way of the future :ib:
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby pedalingkiwi on Wed 26/Aug/09 11:04am

mfw wrote: I believe personal transport is the future - single man cars run by computers that link them up like trains


Oh - so what you want / think will work is little wee personal compartments so you don't have to rub shoulders with the great unwashed ??!! :p

This issue is essentially about the use of resources - fact is they are not limitless and the "need" for continuous economic growth is geared to consumption = epic fail eventually :(

(disclaimer; the author of his statement has never studied (or really understood) economics so is preparing to be flamed :p )
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby iodi on Wed 26/Aug/09 11:17am

mfw wrote:I believe personal transport is the future - single man cars run by computers that link them up like trains (for efficiency and green wave at traffic lights etc).

Like the self-driving pods in Minority Report (skip to 1:08)?
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 11:50am

iodi wrote:2. put it back into public transport? Answer: No. The case of subsidising public transport needs to stand or fall on its own merit. There is no logical connection between the collection of petrol tax and the funding of public transport. Tax is tax - money is fungible, so saying that a specific tax is collecting money for a specific purpose is just a spurious connection, often used to make people feel better about paying tax.


apart from the fact that motorist benefit from other people using public transport, as for every person on public transport there is one less car on the road and that means that when you use you car you get to you destination faster and more conveniently. but cost is not really a factor in public transport, go get more people to use it you have to make it more convent than using a car, but as u make it more covenant it gets more people off the roads and then cars become more covenant and it comes to an equilibrium.

so I would like to see more petrol tax spent on converting 2 lane roads to bus and cycle lanes ( and maybe carpool lanes for 3 or more adults in one vehicle) for commuter traffic times.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby OliverBendix on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:08pm

Bloody hell, look at the change in a decade in Turkey and Hungary. It'd be interesting to look at their transport trends over the same period to see the real effects of fuel tax.
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