Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Kazmeistyr on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:13pm

Ummm, that graph is poo's.

At least at the pump,what I pay here in Aussie, a shitload less for petrol than what I have to pay in NZ.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby thorg on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:22pm

Tama wrote:People seem to focus on motorists "subsidising" public transport while completely failing to notice that it benefits them. For every bus going past that's 20-30 cars not on the road, for every train that's hundreds of cars not on the road. If it wasn't for public transport the individual motorist wouldn't be getting anywhere in a good number of our major cities. Not too mention the lower pollution (better air quality), more parking spaces, and increased road safety...

I now live somewhere where there is NO public transport but I'm quite happy to "subsidise" public transport because I recognise the indirect benefits that public transport offers :thumbsup:

Oh yeah, with no public transport at this end of the country car pooling is becoming quite a popular option - some good carpooling incentives would rock :)
hey - totally support this idea as well :thumbsup: I just think a tax on petrol is a very inneffecient way of doing it. For one, you tama; with no benefit of access, would not only pay more for your petrol without ANY benefit to your driving, but would have to pay more due to the roll over costs that come from increase costs in production/delivery of everything you buy :thumbsup:

Why tax petrol to solve a commuter issue?

tax petrol to discourage its use - I'm fine with

Use public funds to increase public transport options - hell yes.

link the two? no way - too many negatives.

like I said - why not just raise gst?
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:33pm

thorg wrote:Why tax petrol to solve a commuter issue?
tax petrol to discourage its use - I'm fine with
Use public funds to increase public transport options - hell yes.
link the two? no way - too many negatives.
like I said - why not just raise gst?


if you don't link it to petorl tax you link it to income tax and expenditure tax(gst).
petorl tax seems the fairest thing to link it to to me, as most moterist get a benifit from public transport.

rasing GST ( in big chunks) penalises people who have saved in the past :(
Last edited by philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby jo on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:36pm

Kazmeistyr wrote:At least at the pump,what I pay here in Aussie, a shitload less for petrol than what I have to pay in NZ.

It amuses me no end that queensland recently abolished a fuel subsidy. :rolleyes:
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:41pm

philstar wrote:
if you don't link it to petorl tax you link it to income tax and expenditure tax(gst).
petorl tax seems the fairest thing to link it to to me, as most moterist get a benifit from public transport.

rasing GST ( in big chunks) penalises people who have saved in the past :(


I propose that we tax spelling mistakes, and put this money into our clearly failing education system.
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Postby tankman on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:45pm

slidecontrol wrote:... why take 50kgs of metal when 10-12 does the job ;)

A point not overly covered in this fine debate.
Get more fat and/or lazy baskets out of their cars and onto bikes !!!
I've been a cycling commuter since the age of 7 [when I got my first bike], never held a drivers licence and besides a few [read FAR too many] close calls with the metal deathboxes that pollute our environment and squander the dwindling petrol left in the ground, I've got nothing but good things to say about going from A to B via the noble bicycle.
Mmmmmmm .. bicycles :love:
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:57pm

E Dogg Capizzle wrote:
philstar wrote:
if you don't link it to petorl tax you link it to income tax and expenditure tax(gst).
petorl tax seems the fairest thing to link it to to me, as most moterist get a benifit from public transport.

rasing GST ( in big chunks) penalises people who have saved in the past :(


I propose that we tax spelling mistakes, and put this money into our clearly failing education system.


y knot tacks siber bullieing while u r @ it :p
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby pedalingkiwi on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:59pm

ThingOne wrote:I dont know why people focus on petrol so much,
I spend about $2k on fuel each year but spend about $16k on groceries.

Petrols cheap, foods the killer expense.


The reason people focus on petrol so much is because it is;
a) a non-renewable resource, and
b) a highly polluting resource when used, as much of it is, in the internal combustion engine
c) the cornerstone of much of our way of life / economy

Food on the other hand is a relatively renewable resource, but of course the growing, processing and distribution of it is heavily fuel dependant - so don't expect your food to be costing any less, anytime soon :(

Another way to look at it with those expenses you quote is that you'd be better of being taxed for your fuel consumption than your food consumption.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby pedalingkiwi on Wed 26/Aug/09 3:05pm

Tama wrote:People seem to focus on motorists "subsidising" public transport while completely failing to notice that it benefits them. For every bus going past that's 20-30 cars not on the road, for every train that's hundreds of cars not on the road. If it wasn't for public transport the individual motorist wouldn't be getting anywhere in a good number of our major cities. Not too mention the lower pollution (better air quality), more parking spaces, and increased road safety...

I now live somewhere where there is NO public transport but I'm quite happy to "subsidise" public transport because I recognise the indirect benefits that public transport offers :thumbsup:

Oh yeah, with no public transport at this end of the country car pooling is becoming quite a popular option - some good carpooling incentives would rock :)


Altruism FTW
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby jo on Wed 26/Aug/09 3:06pm

pedalingkiwi wrote:The reason people focus on petrol so much is because it is;
a) a non-renewable resource, and
b) a highly polluting resource when used, as much of it is, in the internal combustion engine
c) the cornerstone of much of our way of life / economy

I'm reckoning that (c) is why Joe Bloggs Average gets so emotive about it.
Reducing the cost is a challenge to their lifestyle of convenience, a lifestyle they've been pursuing for decades in many cases.

They may recognise (a) and (b) as valid, but its (c) that hurts them directly.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby slowMTB on Wed 26/Aug/09 3:10pm

Teleportation FTW :thumbsup:
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Kazmeistyr on Wed 26/Aug/09 3:15pm

jo wrote:
Kazmeistyr wrote:At least at the pump,what I pay here in Aussie, a shitload less for petrol than what I have to pay in NZ.

It amuses me no end that queensland recently abolished a fuel subsidy. :rolleyes:


Yes, the bastards. No longer can we gloat at the silly NSW twits having to pay for our good fortune.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 3:20pm

pedalingkiwi wrote:
ThingOne wrote:I dont know why people focus on petrol so much,
I spend about $2k on fuel each year but spend about $16k on groceries.

Petrols cheap, foods the killer expense.


The reason people focus on petrol so much is because it is;
a) a non-renewable resource, and
b) a highly polluting resource when used, as much of it is, in the internal combustion engine
c) the cornerstone of much of our way of life / economy


I would say the reason people focus on petrol is that there is only one petrol price ($1.68/l or what ever it is at the moment) but food is made up of lots of different prices and they do not all go up at once so they see the price rises as gradual. plus if you are a bit short this week there is normal an option to by less or cheaper, not with petrol :)
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Kazmeistyr on Wed 26/Aug/09 3:30pm

philstar wrote:
pedalingkiwi wrote:
ThingOne wrote:I dont know why people focus on petrol so much,
I spend about $2k on fuel each year but spend about $16k on groceries.

Petrols cheap, foods the killer expense.


The reason people focus on petrol so much is because it is;
a) a non-renewable resource, and
b) a highly polluting resource when used, as much of it is, in the internal combustion engine
c) the cornerstone of much of our way of life / economy


I would say the reason people focus on petrol is that there is only one petrol price ($1.68/l or what ever it is at the moment) but food is made up of lots of different prices and they do not all go up at once so they see the price rises as gradual. plus if you are a bit short this week there is normal an option to by less or cheaper, not with petrol :)


It also is pretty obvious to Joe Public that the petrol prices are fixed and they feel they are constantly ripped off.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Nick_K on Wed 26/Aug/09 4:48pm

iodi wrote:2. put it back into public transport? Answer: No. The case of subsidising public transport needs to stand or fall on its own merit. There is no logical connection between the collection of petrol tax and the funding of public transport. Tax is tax - money is fungible, so saying that a specific tax is collecting money for a specific purpose is just a spurious connection, often used to make people feel better about paying tax.


I'm not sure I agree. A strong case could be made that public transport is a public good so should be at least partially funded by society rather that the individual user. Even those who don't use public transport (such as myself) get benifits from less traffic on the roads, decreased CO2 emmisons etc.

An entirly free public transport network would be an interesting idea that as far as I'm aware no country has adopted.
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