Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby thorg on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:12pm

philstar wrote:
iodi wrote:2. put it back into public transport? Answer: No. The case of subsidising public transport needs to stand or fall on its own merit. There is no logical connection between the collection of petrol tax and the funding of public transport. Tax is tax - money is fungible, so saying that a specific tax is collecting money for a specific purpose is just a spurious connection, often used to make people feel better about paying tax.


apart from the fact that motorist benefit from other people using public transport, as for every person on public transport there is one less car on the road and that means that when you use you car you get to you destination faster and more conveniently. but cost is not really a factor in public transport, go get more people to use it you have to make it more convent than using a car, but as u make it more covenant it gets more people off the roads and then cars become more covenant and it comes to an equilibrium.

so I would like to see more petrol tax spent on converting 2 lane roads to bus and cycle lanes ( and maybe carpool lanes for 3 or more adults in one vehicle) for commuter traffic times.
this only work if people have access to public transport, many do not, and will not, ever.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby way_downsouth on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:18pm

thorg wrote:
philstar wrote:
iodi wrote:2. put it back into public transport? Answer: No. The case of subsidising public transport needs to stand or fall on its own merit. There is no logical connection between the collection of petrol tax and the funding of public transport. Tax is tax - money is fungible, so saying that a specific tax is collecting money for a specific purpose is just a spurious connection, often used to make people feel better about paying tax.


apart from the fact that motorist benefit from other people using public transport, as for every person on public transport there is one less car on the road and that means that when you use you car you get to you destination faster and more conveniently. but cost is not really a factor in public transport, go get more people to use it you have to make it more convent than using a car, but as u make it more covenant it gets more people off the roads and then cars become more covenant and it comes to an equilibrium.

so I would like to see more petrol tax spent on converting 2 lane roads to bus and cycle lanes ( and maybe carpool lanes for 3 or more adults in one vehicle) for commuter traffic times.
this only work if people have access to public transport, many do not, and will not, ever.


Should we tax petrol more. Yes, if I think we need to move to consumption based taxes.

There are benefits for roading funders to support public transport (i.e. they don't have to build new roads, design new intersections) so there is a case for public transport to have some level of funding from local/central government.

Regarding Thorg's comments - within the cities, public transport is increasing and the use of Park and Ride area's helps out as well. For small towns - is it really needed?
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby ThingOne on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:19pm

I dont know why people focus on petrol so much,
I spend about $2k on fuel each year but spend about $16k on groceries.

Petrols cheap, foods the killer expense.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:31pm

thorg wrote:this only work if people have access to public transport, many do not, and will not, ever.


yes if you don't have access to public transport it is inconvenient to use. or are you implying that "some people do not have access to public transport and it would be unfair to charge them for it"?

as for small towns their roading is probably subsidised by big city people anyway as they use more roads that are paid for nationally, so I don’t see why they should not be charged a bit extra to even things out.
Last edited by philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:49pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby thorg on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:33pm

way_downsouth wrote:Regarding Thorg's comments - within the cities, public transport is increasing and the use of Park and Ride area's helps out as well. For small towns - is it really needed?
If you work 'normal' hours in a major city and live and work in a 'safe' part of town - then yes. P cant use public transport because it doesnt run for most of her shifts, and for those it does, she quite often in winter will have to walk through an unlit and (imo) dangerous area to get to the bus stop - no thanks, for her safety and my piece of mind she drives. And its not as if public transport would EVER run at those hours. . . . so she should subsidise a service she has no access to because it makes the roads better for those that do have access public transport? Welly has a rather large proportion of public transport use for comuters compared to other centres in NZ, I make good use of it when I can. I have no problem with increasing it - but not by increasing tax on petrol. Should all those in small centers who dont need public transport subsidise my commute? why?

Raise taxes on petrol, fine (though this will raise production/delivery cost of just about everything in NZ - so why not just raise gst?). but raise it to fund public transport? nope.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby way_downsouth on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:34pm

ThingOne wrote:I dont know why people focus on petrol so much,
I spend about $2k on fuel each year but spend about $16k on groceries.

Petrols cheap, foods the killer expense.


Food = yum
Petrol = yuck.

We all enjoy food, while burning petrol for most is seen as a necessity.

But you are right, food is very expensive.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby SlackBoy on Wed 26/Aug/09 12:41pm

way_downsouth wrote:
ThingOne wrote:I dont know why people focus on petrol so much,
I spend about $2k on fuel each year but spend about $16k on groceries.

Petrols cheap, foods the killer expense.


Food = yum
Petrol = yuck.

We all enjoy food, while burning petrol for most is seen as a necessity.

But you are right, food is very expensive.
As an eater, I believe that food IS a necessity. I could be wrong
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby philstar on Wed 26/Aug/09 1:06pm

thorg wrote: P cant use public transport because it doesnt run for most of her shifts, and for those it does, she quite often in winter will have to walk through an unlit and (imo) dangerous area to get to the bus stop - no thanks, for her safety and my piece of mind she drives. And its not as if public transport would EVER run at those hours. . . . so she should subsidise a service she has no access to because it makes the roads better for those that do have access public transport?


people in that situation ( people who receive no direct or 2nd hand benefit from public transport and I would be surprised if there wasn't a 3rd hand benefit some where) , would be in a very small minority, and like people small towns probably don't pay for their shear of the roads, by hour of use.
the one case I see direct funding of public transport as a good thing is in extending the hours of public transport to non profitable hours, as this may increase use during commuter hours. Then all you have to deal with is the safety issue, which should be taken up with the employer/council anyway.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby mfw on Wed 26/Aug/09 1:11pm

iodi wrote:
mfw wrote:I believe personal transport is the future - single man cars run by computers that link them up like trains (for efficiency and green wave at traffic lights etc).

Like the self-driving pods in Minority Report (skip to 1:08)?

Exactly.

The technology is there, there is plenty of research going on into Advanced Traffic Management Systems, it just needs someone determined enough to push it.
I worked on one of these systems in Europe in the 1990's but the technology wasn't ready back then, GPS for one thing has come on a long way since then. The project I worked on was for full sized cars.

My 'mini-car' idea is to put lane restriction barriers in around CBD's to only allow in small vehicles (and commercial vehicles of course), to increase the vehicle density and reduce parking issues. Outside of the CBD the mini-cars can drive on the normal roads, and may be speed limited to 80kph. They would weigh approx 200kg or about 1/8 of a normal car, so roughly speaking would use about 1/8 the energy.

I am currently a software developer working on drive-by-wire electric vehicles so I aware of many of the technologies required.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby mfw on Wed 26/Aug/09 1:14pm

ps: buses are smelly horrible things and wasteful - I am always seeing empty buses chugging around outside of peak hours belching diesel fumes out.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby ThingOne on Wed 26/Aug/09 1:31pm

Scooter FTW..

Why take 1.5 tonnes of metal just to go 10kms across town.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby neels on Wed 26/Aug/09 1:36pm

OliverBendix wrote:Bloody hell, look at the change in a decade in Turkey and Hungary. It'd be interesting to look at their transport trends over the same period to see the real effects of fuel tax.

I suspect that may be due to their converting to the euro, and removing the effect of the exchange rate from their previous currency.
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby XCrazy on Wed 26/Aug/09 1:38pm

ThingOne wrote:Scooter FTW..

Why take 1.5 tonnes of metal just to go 10kms across town.

:withstupid:
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby Tama on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:01pm

People seem to focus on motorists "subsidising" public transport while completely failing to notice that it benefits them. For every bus going past that's 20-30 cars not on the road, for every train that's hundreds of cars not on the road. If it wasn't for public transport the individual motorist wouldn't be getting anywhere in a good number of our major cities. Not too mention the lower pollution (better air quality), more parking spaces, and increased road safety...

I now live somewhere where there is NO public transport but I'm quite happy to "subsidise" public transport because I recognise the indirect benefits that public transport offers :thumbsup:

Oh yeah, with no public transport at this end of the country car pooling is becoming quite a popular option - some good carpooling incentives would rock :)
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Re: Our Petrol Is Still Cheap In Comparison

Postby slidecontrol on Wed 26/Aug/09 2:09pm

XCrazy wrote:
ThingOne wrote:Scooter FTW..

Why take 1.5 tonnes of metal just to go 10kms across town.

:withstupid:




pushbike FTW: why take 50kgs of metal when 10-12 does the job ;)
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