Is New Zealand a racist country?

Yes, those Maoris are getting everything their own way.
39
91%
No.
4
9%
 
Total voters : 43

Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby happybaboon on Fri 18/Sep/09 2:28pm

DropKick wrote:Meh, last year I managed to work enough to earn me 5 figures, on top of being in the upper end of my class at medical school and having a mrs. The hissy's doing BA's can get off their asses

I just get super jealous of how some people can just chill out and get drunk and stoned all the time and get through their courses hardly lifting a finger :D

But I'll have the last laugh when I live and work off a yacht in Monaco.
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby MissChaff on Fri 18/Sep/09 2:48pm

fatwombat wrote:
Looking at New Zealand: is there distinction on the basis of ethnicity? YES, Maori have legal rights and privileges that the rest of us don't get. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just that it clearly happens. Do NZ-ers harbour negative feelings about other ethnicities? In my experience YES. NZ-ers seem to me to feel extremely strongly threatened by other people groups - especially Australians, Americans, Asians and Muslims. Maori and Pakeha share this xenophobia, plus there is a strong and growing negative sentiment between Maori and Pakeha (though for the most part this is manifested as a negative stereotype which people do not assign to individuals in the OTHER group). Do NZ-ers act out their negative feelings twoard other groups? Compared to 20 years ago, MUCH MORE. Compared to Yugoslavia, Rwanda, China, Vietnam, USA, UK, MUCH LESS.


Assuming the last point is correct, why are NZers acting out their negative feelings toward other groups MUCH MORE these days? Is it a trend likely to see us catch up to Yugoslavia etc?
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby happybaboon on Fri 18/Sep/09 2:57pm

I think it's just because the different cultures interact more than they used to, and there's more "different" people (refugees, international students, tourists etc) here than there used to be. Most people don't have a problem with it, but some people are tards who can't cope with other people being different to them, so they nut out.

I don't think it'll ever end up like Yugoslavia or Darfur or anything... There aren't enough guns, we've got an effective police force who manage to stop the hate before it gets out of control, and (hopefully..?) there aren't enough religious/social/cultural/racial whackos to spazz out about each other and start wars.
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby MissChaff on Fri 18/Sep/09 3:00pm

Yea the influx of different cultures makes sense, just because theres an increase of behaviour doesn't mean we are getting nastier by the decade :)
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby fatwombat on Fri 18/Sep/09 3:01pm

phunk wrote:
thorg wrote:
Lynskey wrote:
phunk wrote:"Maori" and "European" are people too..


...What?
i think Phunk is suggesting that both of these 'groups' are not homogenious in nature, and in fact made up of individuals. Treating the group as some form of homogenious conglomeration ignors the diverse difference of individuals within the label, and quite innapropriate.

though I may be reading too much into it.

Yeah somethign like that.

But also people are tribal, they group together with people like them, and then stereotype those that are different - be it race, gender, roadies etc.


Yeah, everyone is exclusivist and tribal - except me! :rolleyes:

It gets back to the need to define somone as OTHER, before teh white men came to NZ, the Maori tribes didn't even recognise the existence of "maori" as an ethnic designation, it was just their word for "normal" - their over-riding factor for self-identification was their tribe, and they fought amazingly brutal genocidal wars on that distinction. "European" is also a very recent construction, before the renaissance there was no concept of Europe as a single entity, the French and the Germans and the English identified a common religion "western Christendom" versus the Orthodox and the infidel, but this concept was never so big as to override their petty differences - which is why they lost against the Muslims whose religion at the time was hugely more important than their diverse ethnicities - Turk, Arab, Egyptian (the Persians stayed a bit aloof because their Shi'a religion was persectuted in the Sunni world).

All this highlights just how much racism is a fundamental part of everyone's thinking, the question shouldn't be "Am I guilty of racism?" but "How much effort do I make to overcome my subconscious racism?" - but only if you care, if you're happy being prejudiced then maybe that's not bad, maybe . . .
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby Lynskey on Fri 18/Sep/09 3:56pm

thorg wrote:
Lynskey wrote:
phunk wrote:"Maori" and "European" are people too..


...What?
i think Phunk is suggesting that both of these 'groups' are not homogenious in nature, and in fact made up of individuals. Treating the group as some form of homogenious conglomeration ignors the diverse difference of individuals within the label, and quite innapropriate.

though I may be reading too much into it.


I appreciate that they're not homogeneous, but it is helpful to refer to Maori vs European to illustrate my point. I guess I'm speaking in terms of crime and criminal justice when I make the distinction, because this is the common point people make about Maori and Pacific Islanders. It is a fact that they are grossly over-represented in the prison system and crime statistics in general (quick point: yes, I understand how problematic crime statistics are) yet they make up a small percentage of our population. With the settlement of New Zealand came an enforcement of European ideals, the legal system established here was based on the Westminster system (i.e England) and Maori people were forced to fall into line because the English were sovereign. The Maori were a collectivist society (vs individual) and the responsibility was borne by more than just one person, perhaps it would be a move forward to try and integrate some system of Maori law into our system, as the current way doesn't seem to be doing anybody any good.
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby DogsBollocks on Fri 18/Sep/09 4:11pm

A lot of black people are cunzors. A lot of white people are cunzors. Put both groups together there are less cunzors per head of total population.

Everyone be nice to each other ;) :thumbsup:
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby UnimatrixZero on Fri 18/Sep/09 4:20pm

fatwombat wrote:First point - it is a fundamental, proven axiom of sociology and psychology that people need to find an identity for themselves. To do this they need to be able to define who they are like and who they are unlike - US and THEM.


Individuals differ in their need to identify with a group though Fatwomble, so I don't entirely agree with your statement. In-group identification is less important to those with a more safe and secure worldview. Such people are less threatened by those with differing views/beliefs and are generally less 'prejudiced' (that's prejudice defined as ANY negative inter-group attitude, not as a perjorative concept per se).
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby j2hyde on Fri 18/Sep/09 5:27pm

I'm a racist and I'm OK :)
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby philstar on Fri 18/Sep/09 5:45pm

Henry Dorset Case wrote:
pedalingkiwi wrote:
UnimatrixZero wrote:Anyway, it got me thinking...
Is it racist to hold a group of people to account for historical injustices?


No, it's not racist. It is in the interests of everyone to address the social & cultural effects of historical injustices - it's a win/win situation. If only comfortably off whitey's could get over what they feel it costs them in cold hard cash, and instead think about what the ongoing consequence for society as a whole of the historical injusices is. Viewing redress as an investment for society might be a useful reframe :)


Since I've been paying off settlements for nearly 30 years, and I have seen no decline in statistics for education, health outcomes, teenage pregnancy or whatever, My racist opinion of course.


that’s cos it all goes to the upper echelon of Maori society and very little of it trickles down to the people who need it, but better keep the upper echelon happy or they will organise the masses and no one wants that
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby Fraser on Fri 18/Sep/09 7:52pm

I find the scene from Trainspotting where they go try to go tramping in the scottish highlands struck a chord with me. Punters getting all dewy eyed about being one flavour or another then Renton telling it like it is.
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby nostromo on Fri 18/Sep/09 8:04pm

philstar wrote:
Henry Dorset Case wrote:
pedalingkiwi wrote:
UnimatrixZero wrote:Anyway, it got me thinking...
Is it racist to hold a group of people to account for historical injustices?


No, it's not racist. It is in the interests of everyone to address the social & cultural effects of historical injustices - it's a win/win situation. If only comfortably off whitey's could get over what they feel it costs them in cold hard cash, and instead think about what the ongoing consequence for society as a whole of the historical injusices is. Viewing redress as an investment for society might be a useful reframe :)


Since I've been paying off settlements for nearly 30 years, and I have seen no decline in statistics for education, health outcomes, teenage pregnancy or whatever, My racist opinion of course.


that’s cos it all goes to the upper echelon of Maori society and very little of it trickles down to the people who need it, but better keep the upper echelon happy or they will organise the masses and no one wants that

Just like 'Pakeha' society :)
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby fatwombat on Fri 18/Sep/09 10:36pm

Philstar and Nostromo are spot on - most of the injustices we see in NZ today are not race-based but class-based (in the broadest sense of the term). The elites among the settlers (who were not necessarily from the wealthy or landed classes in England, but had attained economic and social influence through their entrepreneurship) exploited their position to do deals with the elites among the Maori, who in turn betrayed their own people in order to impress the white entrepreneurs, or to impress other Maori elites (especially those from different hapu), or simply to enrich themselves. This left the poor whites trying to settle on land with dubious title, getting into conflict with poor (in socio-cultural terms if not economically poor) Maori who resented being displaced, while the elites of both people groups carved up the spoils. Maori elites who declined to enter into land deals were targeted for political exclusion by the white elites who managed to garner extreme amounts of power (e.g. in the case of the Waikato war, there were two businessmen whose names elude me - as agents of the NZ company they settled colonists on Maori land; when the Maori tried to eject the colonists, they used their influence as government MPs to engineer a miltary conflict against the Maori which resulted in land confiscations; they then used their real estate business to sell the land to the colonists on behalf of the crown - all true fact). This was not racism, neither Governor Grey nor General Cameron had any desire to exterminate or enslave Maori - in fact Gen.Cameron was quite brutal in his condemnation of Grey for the latter's decision to forcibly remove friendly Maori from the land between Auckland and the "rebellious" Waikato tribes.

Having said all that, let me make clear that I am not a Marxist - Marx only believed in a society with no religion, no property and no marriage because he had no religion, no property . . . and he was married!

OneMattress: your observation is like one of those lovely assertions that can never be tested for right or wrong! For sure, some people are less sensitive about their group identity, but that doesn't mean they can self-identify purely as individuals. In this sense, group identity is like the need for sex or food: everyone needs it; most people find wholesome, restrained and balanced ways to address the need, but others become obsessive or compulsive, allowing that particular need to define their interactions with the outside world. To the extent that some people do self-identify purely as individuals, they are usually regarded as being personally dysfunctional because they cannot relate meaningfully to other people or comprehend that people other than themselves have any value.

This whole thread is a desperate attempt by at least some of us to confirm our own identities: look at the comments by DogsBollocks and j2hyde as examples of people trying to define their ethnic US-THEM boundaries in ways that allow them to stay on the right side of their ethical US-THEM boundaries. Then you have OneMattress and FatWombat, desperately trying to establish academic US-THEM boundaries!!! :lol: :sly:
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby happybaboon on Fri 18/Sep/09 10:41pm

That is too heavy on the intellectual thinkingnessy thing for a Friday night.


That's more like it.
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Re: Is New Zealand A Racist Country?

Postby UnimatrixZero on Sat 19/Sep/09 7:54am

fatwombat wrote:OneMattress: your observation is like one of those lovely assertions that can never be tested for right or wrong!


I don't really know where you're coming from FatTomCat. You can measure strength of identification with a group, and therefore test the assertion. Social scientists have been doing it for years.

Need for strong in-group identification is driven by insecurity, threat and fear.
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