Robbie wrote:I had written a logical reply however I will put it this way:

If you are building a four houses, do you have to wait until one is totally finished before going to the next one?

I hope none of you guys are schedulers...

That depends, are you claiming one of the houses is perfect before it is completed?

thelivo wrote::withstupid:

Robbie wrote:This will be completed in a month or so while almost all of you are sitting on your bums watching television.

Stop being a patronising ****
You have no idea what "almost all of us" do with our time.

Argh. Think I need caffeine.

I was not patronising anybody in particular, I was commenting on the masses.

Even if there are 50 people building tracks around Wellington on Tuesday nights, there are many thousand Wellington MTB riders who are not.

So JFK is being built quite literally while most people are quite literally sitting on their bums watching TV on tuesday evenings.

Robbie wrote:I was not patronising anybody in particular, I was commenting on the masses..

No you were not patronising one person, you were patronising everyone!! From an outsiders perspective, not a great way to encourage people along to help you out.

thelivo wrote:

Robbie wrote:This will be completed in a month or so while almost all of you are sitting on your bums watching television.

Stop being a patronising ****
You have no idea what "almost all of us" do with our time.

Argh. Think I need caffeine.

While I was thinking that Rob was getting a bit of a hard time yesterday, some of the comments this morning are pretty unfair in the other direction.

For the record - Rob has done a great job on the Northface project. Sure, some people may not like it, but it is well used and supported. His effort and vision (along with a few others) has seen it through and if the group that has run with this wants to change a few things wtih Zac's to, in their eyes, improve it - power to them.

While some reasonable questions have been raised, surely giving Rob an email call or email is the best way to do this (although, this is the net).

As for some of Rob's comments later on (particularly how I spend my time) - they are bs.

For the record (and future reference), at the moment my days look something like this
5:30am Up and breakfast.
6am - On the bike and down to work to drop my bag off.
6:30am - Training ride
7:30-8am - Back at work for a shower and more food, ready to start work by 8:15am.
12:30pm - eat lunch at my desk.
7pm - leave work, ride home
7:20pm - home for dinner, eat, wash up, do house work that needs to be done.
8:30pm - Get stuff ready for next day (lunch, bike kit)
9-9:30pm - hopefully sit down with my wife for a while, or go to sleep.

way_downsouth wrote:

thelivo wrote:

Robbie wrote:This will be completed in a month or so while almost all of you are sitting on your bums watching television.

Stop being a patronising ****
You have no idea what "almost all of us" do with our time.

Argh. Think I need caffeine.

While I was thinking that Rob was getting a bit of a hard time yesterday, some of the comments this morning are pretty unfair in the other direction.

For the record - Rob has done a great job on the Northface project. Sure, some people may not like it, but it is well used and supported. His effort and vision (along with a few others) has seen it through and if the group that has run with this wants to change a few things wtih Zac's to, in their eyes, improve it - power to them.

While some reasonable questions have been raised, surely giving Rob an email call or email is the best way to do this (although, this is the net).

As for some of Rob's comments later on (particularly how I spend my time) - they are bs.

For the record (and future reference), at the moment my days look something like this
5:30am Up and breakfast.
6am - On the bike and down to work to drop my bag off.
6:30am - Training ride
7:30-8am - Back at work for a shower and more food, ready to start work by 8:15am.
12:30pm - eat lunch at my desk.
7pm - leave work, ride home
7:20pm - home for dinner, eat, wash up, do house work that needs to be done.
8:30pm - Get stuff ready for next day (lunch, bike kit)
9-9:30pm - hopefully sit down with my wife for a while, or go to sleep.

Wait till you inject children into that mix..

What I don't understand is why waste time* building some singletrack to avoid riding down 50-100m of 4wd track, if people can't ride down a 4wd track perhaps they should take up road cycling?





*When there's far more useful things that could be done, like for example fixing the sections in ridgeline and ridgeline extension where the track is starting do disappear off the side of the hill.

Agreed - this is not a binary thing. People do not just
a) trackbuild or
b) watch TV.

Robbie needs to wind his neck in and stop being so self righteous.

Also for the record, I'm not commenting on the actual trail building decisions - I don't know enough about all the issues to say whether or not I think that the "improvements" are a good thing or not.

I'm also well aware that Rob puts in many hours of good work to MP which are greatly appreciated.

My comments are purely related to his reply to Jono and his Vorb representations which are not appreciated quite so much...

thelivo wrote:Agreed - this is not a binary thing. People do not just
a) trackbuild or
b) watch TV.

Robbie needs to wind his neck in and stop being so self righteous.

lets all take a deep breath. This is getting a bit personal. Agree with the direction or not the trackbuilding at makara is a credit to those that are involved.

using the sweeping generalisations which are common within this thread, i reckon safe to say that those trail building are also bad fathers and partners...as they are digging trails rather than spending time with family.

thelivo wrote:Agreed - this is not a binary thing. People do not just
a) trackbuild or
b) watch TV.

Of course not. But most people do watch TV in the evenings.

Dig up robbie

Haha! Track building debate.

I don’t do much track building. I do about 2 maybe 3 a year and sometimes it is just a lunch break. I really appreciate those who put so much time in though. Wellington wouldn’t be the awesome biking haven I love without these keen folk who make the digging as much a part of their hobby as the pedaling itself.

I think most riders could manage at least one session a year, regardless of commitments. But it doesn’t mean they have to. No-one has to do anything.

Maybe I should dig more? I certainly feel I should, but don’t feel too bad about it considering the other important demands on my time. Happy to debate that of course. But only with people who live as far out as Porirua and have two very young children, as a starting point for entry to that debate.

In summary – I heap admiration on our Wellington track builders, and will endeavor to join in more.

Robbie wrote:I had written a logical reply however I will put it this way:

If you are building a four houses, do you have to wait until one is totally finished before going to the next one?

I hope none of you guys are schedulers...

No but I finish frame before I try hang the door on it.....

A stupid answer sez you have no logical answer, to what would seem to more than 1 quite a logical question ?

but as it is your park I guess you can do what you please

Robbie wrote:Even if there are 50 people building tracks around Wellington on Tuesday nights, there are many thousand Wellington MTB riders who are not.

I don't think it's reasonable to focus on one week - your figures may reflect what happens in a typical week, but probably do not reflect the situation over the course of a year or two. And, I think a year is probably the better metric, and the sort of scale where it might be reasonable to expect most people to contribute in one sense or another (e.g. labour, membership, donation, donation via an event)

Some people have the ability to make trail building their primary activity outside of work, but I among many others are not able to. My daughter and sporting goals are among the things that compete for time. I often consciously think of the work being done by others on my behalf, and am grateful for it. And, when possible, I try to make a contribution, e.g. 45 minutes at the top of Transient yesterday, and a $100 donation to Makara Peak Supporters for some veg clearing on Nikau track the weekend before. I've also spent a bit of time in front of the telly recently.

I don't think people are stupid - they know how and where they could help out. For many reasons, many are choosing not to. But, who are "we" to judge them. I really enjoy riding a bit of trail that I've built - I did it a couple of times this morning. Also, I enjoy the social occasion that a work party offers. To me, turning up sells itself.

I think the role of a group like MPS is to alert the MTB community to the opportunities to contribute, and to create a pleasant working environment if and when people do show up. I think workers should be empowered to make track features that they would like to ride, I think they should be well fed, and I think they should be vigorously thanked. These three things might be enough to get them back, or to recommend it to a friend. I don't think there's any place for a guilt trip - on the trail during a work party, or on the web before or after. This needs to be considered by MPS and others.

Finally, I think there is some obligation to both the landowner and the volunteers to choose projects carefully. Personally, I'd love to see Transient completed before any new sods are turned - anywhere in the city. But, I realise that having parallel projects is a good thing (along the lines of Rob's house analogy). I don't believe the same extends to one facility though. Resources are scarce enough (perhaps even scarcer now...) and to me it makes no sense to start a new section of track before completing current work especially when there are two perfectly usable alternatives (in the case of TNT, the steep 4WD track, and the top of Zac's). I'd rather see NF + JFK + Smokin in top condition for the winter, as well as all other components of the Grand Loop.

It's also worth remembering that as a representative of an organisation, one needs to represent that organisation and its values. There's no place for personal opinion IMO...