Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby thorg on Wed 2/Dec/09 1:58pm

phunk wrote:
Nick_K wrote:Any proof to back that up Phunk?

Goes against common sense that it shouldn't.


Other than that there was property booms in pretty much every country with a CGT on property? Not really.

Property booms have their roots in monetary policy, the differential tax treatment of different forms of investment is only an incidental factor really, and why move to more tax, why not remove the silly taxes on other investments instead?
stop using facts to defeat logic - now i dont know what to believe :-(
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby phunk on Wed 2/Dec/09 2:06pm

Nick_K wrote:
phunk wrote:..and why move to more tax, why not remove the silly taxes on other investments instead?


Because we are currently, and are forcast to for many years, running big deficiets? Reducing taxs either means reducing services or running bigger deficiets for longer. Personally I find the 1st option unacceptable.

Or you could reduce total spending, by cutting wasteful services and increasing efficency in other areas.

Nick_K wrote:
phunk wrote:the differential tax treatment of different forms of investment is only an incidental factor really


I'd disagree with this. The differential taxation of income leads to people investing in what is the most tax efficient investment. This leads to pricing bubbles. My understanding is that while most countries experienced property value bubbles NZ's was significantly worse at least partially due to our lack of CGT.


It wasnt really.

Im not saying its not a factor, its that its not the major factor. You will always get bubbles in asset pricing, you only get really big bubbles when the Central banks forget what they should be doing and keep printing money to prop it up.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby Nick_K on Wed 2/Dec/09 2:13pm

phunk wrote:
Nick_K wrote:
phunk wrote:..and why move to more tax, why not remove the silly taxes on other investments instead?


Because we are currently, and are forcast to for many years, running big deficiets? Reducing taxs either means reducing services or running bigger deficiets for longer. Personally I find the 1st option unacceptable.

Or you could reduce total spending, by cutting wasteful services and increasing efficency in other areas.


:lol: Better get perkbuster Rodney on the case.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby phunk on Wed 2/Dec/09 2:22pm

Nick_K wrote:
phunk wrote:
Nick_K wrote:
phunk wrote:..and why move to more tax, why not remove the silly taxes on other investments instead?


Because we are currently, and are forcast to for many years, running big deficiets? Reducing taxs either means reducing services or running bigger deficiets for longer. Personally I find the 1st option unacceptable.

Or you could reduce total spending, by cutting wasteful services and increasing efficency in other areas.


:lol: Better get perkbuster Rodney on the case.


Hes too busy building an Auckland empire.

But the peasants do get shitty when you take away their macrame classes..
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby philstar on Wed 2/Dec/09 2:48pm

Nick_K wrote:You have to have some degree of political realism in decisions on taxation. Any party that proposed a CGT on peoples peersonal home will never win an election. Even a CGT on investment properties would be a hard sell given our love of property.


I voted for rodney, partial cos he promised it :) more fool me :(

but that is why I sugested the No CTG if you only own one property. simple unfortunatly still open to a small amout of tax avoidance.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby philstar on Wed 2/Dec/09 2:59pm

phunk wrote:Plus CGT has no effect on property booms anyway.


I thought that the right wing pundits proclaimed that tax is what stifles’ the economy and that was there justification for decreasing business tax rate ?

I don’t see how CGT on property will not alleviate housing boom and bust, as most people in the "housing investment pyramid scheme" only invest in the "housing pyramid scheme", so if some tax is siphoned out then it doesn’t grow so fast and then its not such a good growth investment and then people will invest in more productive areas and land will be cheeper = win :)
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby phunk on Wed 2/Dec/09 3:24pm

philstar wrote:
phunk wrote:Plus CGT has no effect on property booms anyway.


I thought that the right wing pundits proclaimed that tax is what stifles’ the economy and that was there justification for decreasing business tax rate ?

I don’t see how CGT on property will not alleviate housing boom and bust, as most people in the "housing investment pyramid scheme" only invest in the "housing pyramid scheme", so if some tax is siphoned out then it doesn’t grow so fast and then its not such a good growth investment and then people will invest in more productive areas and land will be cheeper = win :)


Thats cause you dont really know what you are talking about. It might have a one-off effect, but after that it will just get factored in to any investment decision.

Property bubbles are primarily caused by central banks and restrictions on land use, oh and because people are stupid and 'irrational'.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby philstar on Wed 2/Dec/09 3:48pm

phunk wrote:Thats cause you dont really know what you are talking about. It might have a one-off effect, but after that it will just get factored in to any investment decision.

Property bubbles are primarily caused by central banks and restrictions on land use, oh and because people are stupid and 'irrational'.


property growth is caused by restrictions on land use and increasing population.

property bubbles have the same causes as any other financial bubble, primarily that people invest for growth beyond the utility value of the investment, then investment dries up (for a myriad of reasons) and the price stops growing. with no growth it becomes a "bad investment" and the price falls (or grows slower than interest rates) and equalises to the utility value.

sorry "utility value" is probably not the right jargon but you know what I mean
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby phunk on Wed 2/Dec/09 4:01pm

And all a CGT does is make the potential gain a little bit smaller.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby phunk on Wed 2/Dec/09 4:05pm

And as house prices have not fallen back to their pre-bubble levels, was there even a bubble at all??
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby Slim on Wed 2/Dec/09 4:53pm

phunk wrote:And all a CGT does is make the potential gain a little bit smaller.



And it makes all the punters that are sitting on their hands doing nothing and expecting the government to pay for everything a little happier in the meantime...........till they realise all it did was push the prices up even higher to keep the developers margin the same and they still can't afford a house.

NZ does not need cheaper housing, it needs better wages.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby philstar on Wed 2/Dec/09 5:13pm

Slim wrote:
phunk wrote:And all a CGT does is make the potential gain a little bit smaller.


And it makes all the punters that are sitting on their hands doing nothing and expecting the government to pay for everything a little happier in the meantime...........till they realise all it did was push the prices up even higher to keep the developers margin the same and they still can't afford a house.


are you saying that CGT will make house prices rise?
I believe developers do pay tax on the profit (unless they use a fiddle to avoid it) they make from property development. which is another benefit of CTG is it will make buying a developed new house a comparatively better prospect than a 2nd hand house, as there will be a tax component in both of them rather than just the developed one. which will encourage more development.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby dienamics on Wed 2/Dec/09 5:27pm

Reds under the bed...

Im moving to Oz next year. I want more money so I dont have to be a poor working class slave till I retire and get a government controlled pay out when I retire. Screw that.
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby Nick_K on Wed 2/Dec/09 5:34pm

dienamics wrote:Reds under the bed...

Im moving to Oz next year. I want more money so I dont have to be a poor working class slave till I retire and get a government controlled pay out when I retire. Screw that.


I'm sure it will benifit the IQ of both countries ;)
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Re: Lies Damn Lies And Australian Gdp

Postby jo on Wed 2/Dec/09 5:36pm

Just dont forget your health insurance! :)

And your fire blanket. Tis the season. :huh:
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