I was at meeting with riders all afternoon :-)

for talent ID I would use both a metric that tells me about the VO2, a list of race results (a racing head) and a desire and a dream. Thats my perfect athlete but with heaps of money and no parent

johnL wrote:I was at meeting with riders all afternoon :-)

Could swear it was a two way conversation. Must be losing it

Haha, at least you got it off your chestwig Fergie. Good points and huge Dilemma's with junior performance and Talent ID.

First thing obviously for me would be pure passion and motivation (away from parental and extrinsic pressures) before you invest coaching time on ID'ed talent. If they have a parent driving and funding it, they'll be dropping out for sure. If you've got a kid being taken to the gym or off-track training by parents stats say they'll be dropping out. But who says a good coach can't counter-act the 'forced' athlete. But to me if I had to drive the athlete to train, I wouldn't bother.

On the competition mistakes...a middle ground of prompting questions is what I do. Rather than tell them or let them fall over (unless you're dealing with a stubborn mule), just some guiding dialogue, extract the result you were looking for then walk away let them make the call especially teenage lads! Losses and cock ups are great motivators if the athlete will own it and see it as easily overcome.

Once you start looking into the sociology of sport, you almost don't want to be a performance coach when you see high performance sport is hardly driven by juniors...but to reach performance potential critical periods of training are just before and after puberty...much moral and ethical dilemmas here?!?

Nice one craigtheman.

...crack another can on your head for me next time you're proving your worth through your kids eh?

journal just for you...

Psychology of Sport and Exercise 9 (2008) 645–662

Understanding dropout and prolonged engagement
in adolescent competitive sport
Jessica Fraser-Thomas, Jean Coˆ te´ , Janice Deakin

Abstract

Objectives: The purpose of this study is to gain understanding of training patterns and roles of significant others (i.e. coaches, parents, peers, and siblings) in adolescent swimmers’ sport participation patterns.

Results: Groups had many similar experiences (e.g. early training, supportive and unsupportive coaches, involved parents). However, only dropouts spoke of early peak performances, limited one-on-one coaching, pressuring parents during adolescence, lack of swimming peers during adolescence, and sibling rivalries. In contrast, only engaged athletes spoke of clubs’ developmental philosophies, coaches’ and parents’ open communication, school friends’ support, and siblings’ general positive influences.

Conclusions: Findings highlight the importance of appropriately structured programs and the fragility of athletes’ relationships with significant others during the adolescent years. Implications for sport programmers, coaches, and parents are discussed.

Practical implications
The findings of this study significantly extend our understanding of training and significant
other influences in adolescent sport participation patterns. As such, findings offer considerable implications for practitioners. For example, the study highlights the importance of carefully structured youth sport programs that focus on the physically and psychosocially developing individual rather than simply on the performing athlete. While many sport programs are currently moving toward institutionalization, elitism, and early specialization (De Knop et al., 1996), findings of this study support a more developmental approach consistent with Coˆ te´ and colleagues’ DMSP (Coˆ te´ et al., 2003; Coˆ te´ and Fraser-Thomas, 2007). Sport programmers should clearly define their program’s philosophy, communicate this philosophy to athletes, parents and coaches, and facilitate effective coach and parent education consistent with this philosophy. For example, athletes should be encouraged to participate in a diversity of sporting and other activities during childhood, and be given opportunities to continue involvement in a few activities during adolescence. Wiersma (2000) suggests that sport organizations may soon need to restrict hours of training based on age, to facilitate children’s overall healthy development. One creative way of supporting other activity involvement was demonstrated by coaches in a recent study of high level adolescent track and field athletes, where coaches logged all athletes’ sport involvement, rather than simply tracking attendance for their track and field practices (MacPhail and Kirk, 2006).
This study also highlights the critical influence of significant others during the adolescent years, and the fragility of athletes’ relationships with these individuals. In particular, the findings of this study underline the importance of parents, coaches, and peers’ changing roles during adolescence.
While dropout and engaged athletes recounted similar significant other influences during
childhood, differences began to emerge during adolescence as athletes faced new challenges and obstacles. This study highlighted the importance of open communication with parents and coaches, leading to healthy reciprocal relationships. As Horn et al. (2001) suggest, coaches must make an effort to interact frequently with all their athletes and to solicit information concerning their athletes’ perceptions, opinions, and attitudes regarding their sport involvement. Further, findings emphasize the importance of parents ‘‘backing-off’’ in their practice and performance involvement as their child moves into adolescence. De Knop et al. (1994) suggest that while it is natural for parents to have expectations for their children, these expectations should not be too high or inflexible, and should be for the purpose of achieving goals set by the children. Coaches and parents should also be aware of and help facilitate healthy social networks for adolescents, given that peers play an increasingly important role as children move into adolescence. This study highlights how having a solid group of swimming friends, and a supporting group of school peers, rather than simply a group which provides social distractions, appears critical for continued sport
involvement during adolescence. If sport programmers, coaches, and parents begin to consider some of the implications of this study, we may begin to see youths having more positive sport experiences throughout development, and staying involved in sport throughout their adolescent years.

will be interesting to see how many of the current crop of u17 wunder kids are still cycling/racing around the mid 20's onward mark. once they move out of parent support/pressure and rely on their own motivation and finances.

any rule of thumb for how many persist? one in four?

Very optimistic Joel. 1 in 8 for boys and 1 in 20 for girls would be my pick.

It's a catch 22. I coach an U15 girl but refuse to train her. She can ride when she wants and has weekly ride just to ensure she has the fitness to race at Nationals but my hope is that when she gets into U19s and things get serious that she still has the passion for racing she has now! Or should I just thrash her now so she can rake in the U15 and U17 medals and not worry about her future?

take the glory now

1 in 8, now that is a eye opener. Of the current crop of elite riders (regardless of discipline), is it a case of most coming into cycling competitively early 20's then?

no the current crop of elite span about 10 years, thats 5 lots of U17 riders

Many can be bubbling under. Joanne Kiesanowski didn't win a NZ title till aged 21, was Mark Rendalls first win the 94 Comm Games, in Canterbury Sam Horgan was pretty ordinary as an U19 but was 4th in LeRace today, won a stage of New Cali last year and is racing in Northern France this season. The kicker is Hayden Godfrey: last year under 19 1.15 Kilo and 4.00 for 3000m. Two years later in Comm Games team and the rest is history.

and jack bauer was an average MTB rider in NZ

I've been looking heavily into the retention of athletes and the pathway to elite levels in sport. And key indicators of still-elites are plenty of practice hours in the guise of 'fun and play' while young (<16) then a more specialised approach with plenty of two-way support from coach (sans parents). there's a general rule of 10,000 hours/ 10years to become expert, but I doubt this is the case in cycling it's moreso for fine motor skill and tactical sports such as swimming, soccer etc.

There's huge anecdotal evidence saying excellence in a young age equals burn-out but this isn't necessarily true. It's moreso about where the drive comes from, what their mates think and how they're training. I think the above journal has some real insights to how a coach can do well by his/her athletes.

The biggest issue I see is F...N parents!!!!

there's always the exception...some kids have resilience.

I think with your U15 girl fergie, if she wants to go hard then that's great help her, but pay attention to feedback, and if she's looking to drop out later, compromise by dropping it down to a social level til she re-evaluates.
Competing and succeeding is great motivation to continue, you'll obviously manage it well. And why not give her a successful experience in her life to draw on.

I heard a ridiculous coach talk to his girl athlete today at NI Athletics champs saying "whatever you do win!, who cares about times or how well you race, just win!" he's trying to get her to the world juniors.

haha, now I'm talking to myself...

Do craig kennetts posts all get deleted??? or does he delete them himself?

typically a moderator cleans threads up.