Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby fatwombat on Wed 2/Jun/10 11:48pm

j2hyde wrote:... need to brush up on your international law. Start with the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea:
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMSU#5

Note the Israeli blockade of Palestine is legal. And the attempt to run the blockade was not. Note also that Israel has the right under international law to use military force to prevent people from running the blockade.

Fail.

The San Remo manual defines rules for actions between maritime units of belligerent nations which are at war. In this case there is no war, merely a civil insurrection in an area that Israel unlawfully occupied in 1967. Even if the San Remo manual was relevant, the relevant section wold be 47.c.ii which states that vessels carrying humanitarian aid are exempt from attack.

The BBC news service (which is better informed than I am and probably better informed than you) in these matters gave the following assessment (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle ... 201165.stm):
# The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought.
# The charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable.
# A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate".


The naval bolckade line is approximately 30km off the Gaza coast; the attack was made while the convoy was over 100km away from Gaza so it is not true to say that these ships were trying to breach the blockade, even though they had expressed their intention to do so once they reached the blockade line. If you justify the Israeli attack because of the declared intentions of the protestors, to avoid being a hypocrite you would also have to say the French were justified in sinking the Rainbow Warrior.

The Israelis claim to have been defending themselves, but they would have known that armed Israelis would not be received with affection if they inserted themselves onto protest vessels. If their only interest was to safeguard Israeli lives they could have stayed in their helicopters. The truth is that they wanted to safeguard their own lives while imposing their will on the protestors. Marine law certainly gives the occupants of a ship the right to defend themselves against unlawful attacks in international waters, and that is what the protestors faced.

j2hyde wrote:And why aren't you all bleating about the lack of attempts to run the blockade from Egypt? Hypocrisy much?

I think most people see the lack of real, practical support for the Palestinians by Arab nations as abject hypocrisy,especially since their leaders are always making declarations and holding conferences to prolaim their support for the Palestinian cause. So was the decision by Egypt and Jordan to annex the West Bank and Gaza into their own countries in 1948-49 while claiming to help defend the Palestinians from the Jews. It's also hypocritical that Egypt has been co-operating with Israel in maintaing the blockade since 2007. Yasser Arafat was a hypocrite for siphoning billions of dollars of aid money into his wn private bank accounts. But what is your point here? Do you think that Egypt's hypocrisy turns Zionist racism into a virtue?
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby happybaboon on Thu 3/Jun/10 1:10am

landscaper wrote:I was lucky enough to spend 5 months last year working in the West Bank, Palestine. One thing I learnt was that the Israelis do what they want, when they want and care nothing about what pain or suffering they cause.

I am a pretty easy going Kiwi bloke but came away from the area absolutely hating Israel & Israelis (I must say in general as I met and made friends with a few).

When you see the abuse and suffering they put Palestinians through (think of cutting off water to Palestinians on peak summer days or preventing Palestinian ambulances from getting to a Palestinian hospital so the patient dies in the ambulance #$%^&*) you have to wonder. What happened to them years ago they are now doing to another people !!! Why ???

It is so nice to see that the world is now taking notice of what is going on over there. Hopefully Israel will be told to pull it's head in!

I've been aware since ages ago that Israel has been guilty of what international political experty types might term "epic dick moves" against the Palestinians. I think just about everyone is aware of it, in fact... The UN (including 14 out of the 15 security council countries) routinely attempts to give Israel massive bollockings. What needs to change isn't the worlds awareness or opinion, what needs to change is America needs to grow a pair, ignore the American Jewish lobby, and tell Israel to grow the fuck up and play nice... If they don't start to treat the land what we all gave them after WW2 with respect and share it peacefully with the Arabs who live there too then we'll fucking well come take it back off them and they'll be out on their asses.


Yeah, as if that'll ever happen... Ah well :)
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby landscaper on Thu 3/Jun/10 1:58am

happybaboon wrote:
landscaper wrote:I was lucky enough to spend 5 months last year working in the West Bank, Palestine. One thing I learnt was that the Israelis do what they want, when they want and care nothing about what pain or suffering they cause.

I am a pretty easy going Kiwi bloke but came away from the area absolutely hating Israel & Israelis (I must say in general as I met and made friends with a few).

When you see the abuse and suffering they put Palestinians through (think of cutting off water to Palestinians on peak summer days or preventing Palestinian ambulances from getting to a Palestinian hospital so the patient dies in the ambulance #$%^&*) you have to wonder. What happened to them years ago they are now doing to another people !!! Why ???

It is so nice to see that the world is now taking notice of what is going on over there. Hopefully Israel will be told to pull it's head in!

I've been aware since ages ago that Israel has been guilty of what international political experty types might term "epic dick moves" against the Palestinians. I think just about everyone is aware of it, in fact... The UN (including 14 out of the 15 security council countries) routinely attempts to give Israel massive bollockings. What needs to change isn't the worlds awareness or opinion, what needs to change is America needs to grow a pair, ignore the American Jewish lobby, and tell Israel to grow the fuck up and play nice... If they don't start to treat the land what we all gave them after WW2 with respect and share it peacefully with the Arabs who live there too then we'll fucking well come take it back off them and they'll be out on their asses.


Yeah, as if that'll ever happen... Ah well :)


I agree that it will probably take a change of attitude from America to put Israel in line but as you say the American Jewish have too much influence.

It's an amazing part of the world being ruined (or ruled) by hate.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby Wobbler on Thu 3/Jun/10 7:33am

what a bunch of nazis
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby nzmatto on Thu 3/Jun/10 10:32am

znomit wrote:
nzmatto wrote:I think we need a Palestinian state. As in a legal country created like Israel was.


Lets give them the Kapiti coast.


Wouldn't work....both sides only want 1 piece of land....that being the temple mount. Both religions believe that God gave it to them. It all comes back to a dud who slept with his wife's made and had a son, then slept with his wife and had a son....the former is where one side comes from, the latter the other.....it's just a lovers tiff. (as someone else put it).
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby CrustyMTB on Thu 3/Jun/10 1:12pm

landscaper wrote: the American Jewish have too much influence.
A workmate of mine (old conservative biddy) said on monday "They [persons of jewish ethnicity] rule the world you know, they always have."

Conversation stopper right there.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby radiusq on Thu 3/Jun/10 2:58pm

Mossad stole the J Edger Hoover papers. The Hoover papers show who killed JFK. Israel blackmails the US with threats of releasing this information.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby j2hyde on Thu 3/Jun/10 7:19pm

fatwombat wrote:... blah blah blah...

In this case there is no war, merely a civil insurrection in an area that Israel unlawfully occupied in 1967.

... more blah....

If you justify the Israeli attack because of the declared intentions of the protestors, to avoid being a hypocrite you would also have to say the French were justified in sinking the Rainbow Warrior.

... blah again...

The Israelis claim to have been defending themselves, but they would have known that armed Israelis would not be received with affection if they inserted themselves onto protest vessels. If their only interest was to safeguard Israeli lives they could have stayed in their helicopters. The truth is that they wanted to safeguard their own lives while imposing their will on the protestors.

.... some more blah, etc....


For a guy that writes extended essays you don't seem to be too good at making them internally cohesive. :eh: Rainbow Warrior? WTF :rolleyes:

In case you hadn't noticed Hamas and Israel are at war. Thats why they spend a lot of time and effort killing each other.

The blockade is to prevent arms being smuggled to Hamas, and the raid was a very predictable result of the flotilla making it clear from the outset that they weren't going to comply with the conditions of the blockade (ie allowing inspections to ensure they were not smuggling arms or other military equipment) for the purposes of a publicity stunt.

The publicity stunt worked. Israel is demonised by sectors of the media and a few bleeding hearts who predictibly enough have nothing to say about the oppression of the Palestinians by their Arab "brothers". Nothing else changes.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby CrustyMTB on Thu 3/Jun/10 7:26pm

j2hyde wrote:In case you hadn't noticed Hamas and Israel are at war. Thats why they spend a lot of time and effort killing each other.
Legally speaking Hamas (an organisation) cannot be at war with Israel (a sovereign state) The west Bank was part of Jordan (who made peace with Israel in 1994) and Gaza was part of Egypt (who made peace in 1979). So rules of war don't apply. Soz.

Whereas Turkey now has causus bellum.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby happybaboon on Thu 3/Jun/10 7:41pm

Hmmm, I think in this particular case those rules count for fuck all as Israel demonstrate over and over again that they don't give a shit about international laws and the United States by way of security council vetos ensure that Israel are never brought to account for their actions.

The Turkish are gutsy shitkicking mofos (as the ANZACs found out...), Israel probably wants to tread carefully now that they've so successfully pissed off a country that's probably capable of fighting back :D
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby nostromo on Thu 3/Jun/10 8:17pm

Yarr one thing about the Turks, individually they are very friendly people but when it comes to fighting, no quarter given. They didn't rule most of the world for 400yrs without being tough and well organised.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby CrustyMTB on Thu 3/Jun/10 8:28pm

nostromo wrote:Yarr one thing about the Turks, individually they are very friendly people but when it comes to fighting, no quarter given. They didn't rule most of the world for 400yrs without being tough and well organised.
Bollocks! the Ottoman turks were effette stoned pederasts who used Janisseries (psycho islamic mercenaries monks)to do the head kicking.
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby happybaboon on Thu 3/Jun/10 8:46pm

CrustyMTB wrote:
nostromo wrote:Yarr one thing about the Turks, individually they are very friendly people but when it comes to fighting, no quarter given. They didn't rule most of the world for 400yrs without being tough and well organised.
Bollocks! the Ottoman turks were effette stoned pederasts who used Janisseries (psycho islamic mercenaries monks)to do the head kicking.

I take it that you're still bitter about that time you went to a Turkish Bath to get a massage and instead of a large hairy bloke called Krovlat you got some non-hairy lady Turk? :eh:

I'm totally rooting for Turkey if they end up calling out Israel :thumbsup:
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby j2hyde on Thu 3/Jun/10 9:01pm

You're totally rooting your hand even thinking it's a possibility :)
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Re: Israel = Meshugganah Pirate Nation

Postby nostromo on Thu 3/Jun/10 9:10pm

The collective mojo of Israel for fighting the fight is waning. That was evident in the last Lebanon war, and now in this operation which was very unprofessional.
They have a nice little setup there in Israel, but they keep having to die and kill and each successive generation is rightly tiring of it.
Eventually they will give up and settle for peace, which will be bloody good for the rest of us.
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