Postby Datsane on Wed 21/Feb/07 9:48am

Steve-O wrote: Thats shit. Sack them both with something. points deductions. Note team Kiwi, buy a Holden and operate illegally. Meet with the governing board and no worries! Gotta be good for ya!

What a crock of shit!
Does anyone know that team kiwi was doing something illegal :eh: or is it just people thinking they have?

They wouldn't do anything to Toll or the HDT teams as one of them holds the championship which would end up being taken from them. Thus it would make a huge shit storm and holden fans would boycot.
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Postby Vinnie on Wed 21/Feb/07 10:50am

Steve-O wrote: Thats shit. Sack them both with something. points deductions. Note team Kiwi, buy a Holden and operate illegally. Meet with the governing board and no worries! Gotta be good for ya!

What a crock of shit!


You're obviously a stuanch, one-eyed Ford supporter, thats trying to inflame the Ford/Holden/whichever is best debate that usually sends one of these threads to the pit.

Note that TKR have just shifted to Ford and had struck up a data sharing deal with FPR. So IF the two Holden teams had been found out later in the series and thrown out, so would have FPR and TKR.

And Ford teams haven't been so rightous in the past either (DJR win back in the mid nineties anyone at Bathurst in pissing rain).




Its looking fairly obvious that the rules need to be clarified, one way or the other. I don't think data sharing is a bad thing - especially since it seems pretty easy for a small team to partner up a deal with a larger team to share data. And if the big in house ones, like TWR or whoever want to share data between themselves then so be it.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. You might know the best way to setup the car for the track, but drivers like different styles of setups, and the cars built by the teams all react differently to another exactly the same (even within the same team). What works for one driver, won't necessarily work for another or their car.
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Postby Colin on Wed 21/Feb/07 11:12am

This news item is the one that I feel is closest to the real story.

1. A rule that says one person can't own two team.
2. For months the controlling body was asking for information / clarification.
3. For months Walkinshaw related interests were not answering the question / being evasive.
4. The controlling body resorted to banning the two teams to get the answers they need.

It would be nice know what information was provided to allow the two teams to race. Without that there will be a foul smell around those two team.
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Postby dhroadie on Wed 21/Feb/07 11:15am

Steve-O wrote: No one liked seeing Toyota get thrown out of the WRC in the 1990's. They cheated and broke rules. 2 WRC drivers were left without drives. Shit happens. Not the drivers faults but cheating is cheating. Like i said behind the scenes or out on the track or stages it must not go unpunished.


i thought that was an abysmal situation. sure punish them with a points deduction or a fine or somesuch but to kick them out of the WRC was cutting off their nose to spite their face, and the WRC was, and still is, poorer for not having them.
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Postby Vinnie on Wed 21/Feb/07 11:20am

dhroadie wrote:
Steve-O wrote: No one liked seeing Toyota get thrown out of the WRC in the 1990's. They cheated and broke rules. 2 WRC drivers were left without drives. Shit happens. Not the drivers faults but cheating is cheating. Like i said behind the scenes or out on the track or stages it must not go unpunished.


i thought that was an abysmal situation. sure punish them with a points deduction or a fine or somesuch but to kick them out of the WRC was cutting off their nose to spite their face, and the WRC was, and still is, poorer for not having them.
I doubt Toyota would ever enter the WRC again after that fiasco.

Although, even if they wanted to, I don't really see them having a production car that would be capable at the moment either (unless I'm missing something out of their product line). The new Celica looks like its morphed into a mid-life-crisis car that could be thrashed at the track - but most of the people I see who own them are balding men, and grannies.
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Postby dhroadie on Wed 21/Feb/07 11:28am

Vinnie wrote:
dhroadie wrote:
Steve-O wrote: No one liked seeing Toyota get thrown out of the WRC in the 1990's. They cheated and broke rules. 2 WRC drivers were left without drives. Shit happens. Not the drivers faults but cheating is cheating. Like i said behind the scenes or out on the track or stages it must not go unpunished.


i thought that was an abysmal situation. sure punish them with a points deduction or a fine or somesuch but to kick them out of the WRC was cutting off their nose to spite their face, and the WRC was, and still is, poorer for not having them.
I doubt Toyota would ever enter the WRC again after that fiasco.

Although, even if they wanted to, I don't really see them having a production car that would be capable at the moment either (unless I'm missing something out of their product line). The new Celica looks like its morphed into a mid-life-crisis car that could be thrashed at the track - but most of the people I see who own them are balding men, and grannies.


agreed, think the situation could have easily been avoided by a more realistic punishment in the first place though. the celica and/or corolla could by now be a firebreathing monster like the evos or wrx instead of an utterly unremarkable family runabout, and having one more manufacturer would have been good for the sport and drivers.
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Postby Vinnie on Wed 21/Feb/07 11:33am

dhroadie wrote: and having one more manufacturer would have been good for the sport and drivers.


It would have been extremely good when the field was running fairly light. Things are much better now with the increased manufacturers (even though some are 'unsupported' privateers).

Has there been a rule change in recent years, that now allows a manufacturer to run more than two vehicles in a team as well? I'm sure that Ford did for a while, and I think Subaru did also. Pugeot or Citeron may have as well before they both exited the championship for a 'break'.
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Postby dhroadie on Wed 21/Feb/07 11:37am

Vinnie wrote:
dhroadie wrote: and having one more manufacturer would have been good for the sport and drivers.


It would have been extremely good when the field was running fairly light. Things are much better now with the increased manufacturers (even though some are 'unsupported' privateers).

Has there been a rule change in recent years, that now allows a manufacturer to run more than two vehicles in a team as well? I'm sure that Ford did for a while, and I think Subaru did also. Pugeot or Citeron may have as well before they both exited the championship for a 'break'.


yeah, you could run three drivers but only two could be nominated for points in any given event. subaru did it with solberg/atkinson/sarrazin for example and would nominate solberg and sarrazine to score points on tarmac events
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Postby Datsane on Wed 21/Feb/07 12:17pm

I don't think that the info swapping was or is the problem. If it was other teams wouldn't be able to buy engines and chassis from other teams.
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Postby Henry Dorset Case on Wed 21/Feb/07 12:19pm

robbieracer wrote: Eh wot??. at least now more than two or three cars can win.
Admittedly they are only pretend Fords and Holdens, but at least they have gotten away from the silly idea that mofdified production cars make the best racing.

After all, why should racing be defined by the limits imposed by ordinary driving :)


I really dislike this style of racing, and the stupid Ford vs Holden rivalry and all that shit (its almost as bad as thugby and other stupid stick and ball sports*). Its crap. The only racing I like really is motorbikes and open wheel stuff, and/or things like Pre 65's. (Minis vs Lotus Cortina vs great big yank tanks.. ).

I spent all day yesterday circulating on a racetrack. Having done that Ive decided the only racing I want to watch is the one I'm in. Dont watch it on the fuckin' telly, get to a track and make it happen yourself.


*not the stick and ball sport you're thinking of.
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Postby Vinnie on Wed 21/Feb/07 12:41pm

Henry Dorset Case wrote:I spent all day yesterday circulating on a racetrack. Having done that Ive decided the only racing I want to watch is the one I'm in. Dont watch it on the fuckin' telly, get to a track and make it happen yourself.


I'm looking at getting into carting when I come back from overseas. No point doing it now, I'm not sure where I will end up when I get back, so they may not have a race track.

But I've looked into it, and its fairly reasonable price wise, and is a hell of a lot of fun :satan:
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Postby Steve-O on Wed 21/Feb/07 1:43pm

Vinnie wrote:You're obviously a stuanch, one-eyed Ford supporter, thats trying to inflame the Ford/Holden/whichever is best debate that usually sends one of these threads to the pit.


Incorrect, I support neither, I don't support this class in any form. Watching it on TV is the biggest bore ever, they file into single file after the first corner and drive to the finish. You dont see agressive passing and exciting door to door action like in many other forms of motorsport around the world. They should watch european racing classes and learn how to entertain the fans.

So to conclude, I do not support Ford, nor Holden and I am not trying to start a Ford VS Holden debate because that got boring about 5 years ago.
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Postby Datsane on Wed 21/Feb/07 2:18pm

Steve-O wrote:
Vinnie wrote:You're obviously a stuanch, one-eyed Ford supporter, thats trying to inflame the Ford/Holden/whichever is best debate that usually sends one of these threads to the pit.


Incorrect, I support neither, I don't support this class in any form. Watching it on TV is the biggest bore ever, they file into single file after the first corner and drive to the finish. You dont see agressive passing and exciting door to door action like in many other forms of motorsport around the world. They should watch european racing classes and learn how to entertain the fans.

So to conclude, I do not support Ford, nor Holden and I am not trying to start a Ford VS Holden debate because that got boring about 5 years ago.
:eh:
You know we are talking about V8 Supercars and not F1.
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Postby Robbie on Wed 21/Feb/07 2:44pm

Datsane wrote: I don't think that the info swapping was or is the problem. If it was other teams wouldn't be able to buy engines and chassis from other teams.


er wrong again.. :paranoid:

In V8 supercars there is a huge push to limit the advantage of unlimited funds. One way to do this is to restrict testing. The fines for this are tens of thousands of dollars per day.. and their (standardised) data loggers can be checked to see this easily.

Info swapping is absolutely critical when testing is seriously limited.
Two teams could co operate and learn twice as much ( as no duplicate tests would be made)
In a series where there are a few tenths of a second per lap between the very good guys, that alone could win a championship.

For example, one team could focus on qualifying setup, the other race setup.. as they are very different, and cannot be tested at the same time (unlike, say brakes and engine mapping could be)




:eh:
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Postby Henry Dorset Case on Wed 21/Feb/07 3:09pm

I could never own one of those fod or holdon repli racers: my beer gut isnt big enough, and I couldnt grow a mo,especially the mandatory thick and luxurious one, and Im basically too happy with my lot in life.
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