Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby iodi on Tue 28/Jul/09 12:13pm

slidecontrol wrote:I presume you're talking about politicians Oli?

these people have only two modes of operation, being a liar when in government, and a hypocrite when in opposition. :hmmm:

That's unfair. Politicians are much more versatile than that: they can also be hypocrites in government and liars in opposition.

Anyway, the National Cycleway will only become a truly national network of tracks if local people in each area lobby for it to happen and contribute to the process in their area. It will take many years of piecemeal development until it resembles anything like a national cycleway. Since that timeframe is well beyond the life of this Government, and the next one, it will take commitment from many people to make this project a reality. If all that people do is whine about it, then little will happen and the project will wither and die.

Given that Vorb is supposedly a pro-cycling place, I'm surprised by the negative tone of many comments. The National Cycleway Project is one of the best things to happen to cycling in NZ for a very long time. Quit bitching about it and go do something constructive.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby XCguy on Tue 28/Jul/09 12:21pm

iodi wrote:I'm surprised by the negative tone of many comments. The National Cycleway Project is one of the best things to happen to cycling in NZ for a very long time.

Agreed! Big :thumbsup: to Mr key for this I say! We may not all agree on the way the network is developed/implemented but one thing we can surely ALL agree on is that this is fantastic for cycling in NZ. Bring it on.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby RJM on Wed 29/Jul/09 5:55am

thorg wrote:
RJM wrote:Sadly perhaps none of this is going to generate the expected tourism income. These cycleways are based around the minority sport of mountain biking rather than opening them up to all cyclists. If these were paved (in whatever surface) then you would get the roadies from Australia, you would get the older America tourists, would would even get locals who can only afford the warehouse bikes that are not designed for off road use. You could then have turn offs on the routes for the serious MTBers where need be. You could even get those sentenced to Community Service to maintain the cycleways. If you got DOC to plant some trees next to the routes and set up conservation islands around them you could even reduce our issues with the Kyoto Accord. Sorry but I can't help feeling we are missing a great opportunity here ? :(
you seem to be suggesting the cycleways be bsaed around the minority sport of road cycling :eh:

I thought they (they being the 7 so far identified) were based around things like the rail trail - where mountain bikes, tourers, commuters, kids, and even roadies (perhaps with a bit of tread on their tyres) were the target market?


You are such a moron - but I knew a clown like you would focus on just one line of my comments and crap on about it !! Road Cycling a minority sport eh - do you know how many came out just to watch the second to last stage of the tour ? Bet you don't !! Anyway have another think about this - think of all the different ages and fitness levels of all possible tourists - and try to focus on the issue here.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby RJM on Wed 29/Jul/09 5:58am

Scotty wrote:
RJM wrote:Sadly perhaps none of this is going to generate the expected tourism income. These cycleways are based around the minority sport of mountain biking rather than opening them up to all cyclists. If these were paved (in whatever surface) then you would get the roadies from Australia, you would get the older America tourists, would would even get locals who can only afford the warehouse bikes that are not designed for off road use.

Dude, have you ever even ridden that rail trail and seen the crappers and the sort of people that happily mosey along it?

Wait that was a rheotrical question: NO. I know you haven't.


and you know this how exactly ?? What an idiot !! Try coming up with some useful and thoughtful comments - Wait NO. you can't - you haven't got the brains.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby sweet_P on Wed 29/Jul/09 7:56am

Ok - normally I don't wade into these sorts of discussions, but this is just silly. The rail trail is NOT "mountain biking" - you don't not NEED a mountain bike. You can do it on ANY sort of bike.

RJM - how does the number of people who watch the TDF relate to the popularity of road cycling? I bet you most people who watch an All Blacks game don't play rugby themselves (sure, some might've in the past, if we're being pedantic). Same with any spectator event - you watch it because you appreciated the hard work & skill of the athletes that are participating - and the excitement of the competition. You don't have to participate in the sport yourself for that.

Scotty spent many years working in bike shops - I suspect he'd be able to tell the ratio of road bikes to knobbly tyred bikes that get sold and I'm pretty sure it'd be heavily in favour of the knobbly variety and those bikes probably don't see dirt that often.

I've ridden parts of the Otago Rail Trail a few times - vary rarely have I seen anything other than very low spec offroad bikes (including the "not for offroad" kmart variety) - or local rental bikes. You don't need to be a full on mountain biker to do it. And I'm with Scotty, I doubt you've seen the rail trail either, otherwise you'd not make comments like that...

This is the rail trail - and it's ALL like this.
railtrail.jpg
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby thorg on Wed 29/Jul/09 8:06am

RJM = baiter

Us = fell for it :(
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby psychavoc on Wed 29/Jul/09 8:27am

One of the most memorable memories from when we rode some of the Rail Trail was the group of middle-aged women who we came across. All were riding "hybrid" style bikes with their packed lunches in their baskets on the front, one of which was wearing a feather boa and having the time of her life :)
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby Tama on Wed 29/Jul/09 8:55am

Road bikes are for cycling on the road - that's why they're called "road" bikes

Everything else which the vast majority of cyclists own (tourers, commuters, hybrids, mountain bikes etc.) can easily handle gravel surfaces such as the CORT.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby RJM on Wed 29/Jul/09 10:31am

sweet_P wrote:Ok - normally I don't wade into these sorts of discussions, but this is just silly. The rail trail is NOT "mountain biking" - you don't not NEED a mountain bike. You can do it on ANY sort of bike.

RJM - how does the number of people who watch the TDF relate to the popularity of road cycling? I bet you most people who watch an All Blacks game don't play rugby themselves (sure, some might've in the past, if we're being pedantic). Same with any spectator event - you watch it because you appreciated the hard work & skill of the athletes that are participating - and the excitement of the competition. You don't have to participate in the sport yourself for that.

Scotty spent many years working in bike shops - I suspect he'd be able to tell the ratio of road bikes to knobbly tyred bikes that get sold and I'm pretty sure it'd be heavily in favour of the knobbly variety and those bikes probably don't see dirt that often.

I've ridden parts of the Otago Rail Trail a few times - vary rarely have I seen anything other than very low spec offroad bikes (including the "not for offroad" kmart variety) - or local rental bikes. You don't need to be a full on mountain biker to do it. And I'm with Scotty, I doubt you've seen the rail trail either, otherwise you'd not make comments like that...

This is the rail trail - and it's ALL like this.



I guess the thing that annoyed me the most was Scotty's very arrogant assumption that I have never ridden these trails before - I have - I did Otago over Xmas.

I also suspect the ratio of sales maybe like the womens magazines - don't give people much option and they will buy what they see - i.e. MTB bikes may domaint the bikeshops - here I said 'may'.

Anyway this is not about what type of bikes people chose rides, as long as they ride. But I was suggesting (or trying to anyway) that if parts of the planned tracks had a smoother surface then more people (e.g. elderly American tourists perhaps) might want to give it a go.

Some people (given their age and fitness) might not like the weight or the drag of bikes more suited to these trails.

Besides, what would be the harm in surfacing some of these ?
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby mark2c on Wed 29/Jul/09 10:33am

Found this. Not a lot of information...
NewZealandCyclewayQuickStartTracks.pdf
28 July 2009 Cycleway Blurb
Downloaded 41 times
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby Oli on Wed 29/Jul/09 10:35am

RJM wrote:Besides, what would be the harm in surfacing some of these ?
Cost? :eh:

Perhaps we should establish the network first and then build on it? Surely it will swiftly become apparent if it's not ideal for all users?
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby RJM on Wed 29/Jul/09 10:40am

Oli wrote:
RJM wrote:Besides, what would be the harm in surfacing some of these ?
Cost? :eh:

Perhaps we should establish the network first and then build on it? Surely it will swiftly become apparent if it's not ideal for all users?


The voice of reason - thanks Oli :)

I think I'll leave this thing alone now.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby mark2c on Wed 29/Jul/09 10:42am

RJM wrote:Some people (given their age and fitness) might not like the weight or the drag of bikes more suited to these trails.

Besides, what would be the harm in surfacing some of these ?


Two things:
1) Cost, both capital and ongoing (yes hard surfacing doesn't last forever and costs heaps more to repair).

2) Many want to escape the pavement.

Pavement & McDonald$ etc are available elsewhere for elderly freespeech tourists.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby thorg on Wed 29/Jul/09 10:48am

RJM wrote:I guess the thing that annoyed me the most was Scotty's very arrogant assumption that I have never ridden these trails before - I have - I did Otago over Xmas.

I also suspect the ratio of sales maybe like the womens magazines - don't give people much option and they will buy what they see - i.e. MTB bikes may domaint the bikeshops - here I said 'may'.

Anyway this is not about what type of bikes people chose rides, as long as they ride. But I was suggesting (or trying to anyway) that if parts of the planned tracks had a smoother surface then more people (e.g. elderly American tourists perhaps) might want to give it a go.

Some people (given their age and fitness) might not like the weight or the drag of bikes more suited to these trails.

Besides, what would be the harm in surfacing some of these ?
Smoother than the ocrt? are you serious? if it were smoother than ocrt, then the only bikes it would suit are roadies, and commuters on slicks. It would also be prohibitivly expensive to both build and maintain. The OCRT is exactly what you seem to be argueing for (able to be used be the largest majority of people on the largest majority of bikes of all fitness levels).

Any bike shop will tell you that Ma and Pa and kids bikes are their bread and butter, MTB and Roadie are minority. So in reality, any trail aimed at hitting the "majority" of cyclists will be neither a MTB track nor a paved cycleway - it will be somewhere closer to the paved than the MTB end of the spectrum though. Hence everyone sayin the OCRT is just what we are after.

Every reputable source of information on expectations of users of this type of facility give "getting out there" and "experiencing the outdoors and nature" as the prime motivators. A paved surface detracts from this (admittedly this is a percieved detraction in the eyes of the users) whereas a compacted aggrigate is seen as 'natural' and enhances it.

RJM wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJM wrote:Sadly perhaps none of this is going to generate the expected tourism income. These cycleways are based around the minority sport of mountain biking rather than opening them up to all cyclists. If these were paved (in whatever surface) then you would get the roadies from Australia, you would get the older America tourists, would would even get locals who can only afford the warehouse bikes that are not designed for off road use. You could then have turn offs on the routes for the serious MTBers where need be. You could even get those sentenced to Community Service to maintain the cycleways. If you got DOC to plant some trees next to the routes and set up conservation islands around them you could even reduce our issues with the Kyoto Accord. Sorry but I can't help feeling we are missing a great opportunity here ? :(
you seem to be suggesting the cycleways be bsaed around the minority sport of road cycling :eh:

I thought they (they being the 7 so far identified) were based around things like the rail trail - where mountain bikes, tourers, commuters, kids, and even roadies (perhaps with a bit of tread on their tyres) were the target market?


You are such a moron - but I knew a clown like you would focus on just one line of my comments and crap on about it !! Road Cycling a minority sport eh - do you know how many came out just to watch the second to last stage of the tour ? Bet you don't !! Anyway have another think about this - think of all the different ages and fitness levels of all possible tourists - and try to focus on the issue here.
your response to my initial comment was pretty harsh dont you think? Seeing as road cycling is as minority as MTB cycling, and it was YOU that made that comment? And the rest of your point (trees and kyoto etc) could equally be applied to a aggrigate as a paved track? I was merely suggesting that what has been proposed actually suited what you said we needed. But you felt it deserved a personal attack on me. well done.
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Re: How Much Of The National Cycleway Is Already There?

Postby RJM on Wed 29/Jul/09 11:38am

thorg wrote:
RJM wrote:I guess the thing that annoyed me the most was Scotty's very arrogant assumption that I have never ridden these trails before - I have - I did Otago over Xmas.

I also suspect the ratio of sales maybe like the womens magazines - don't give people much option and they will buy what they see - i.e. MTB bikes may domaint the bikeshops - here I said 'may'.

Anyway this is not about what type of bikes people chose rides, as long as they ride. But I was suggesting (or trying to anyway) that if parts of the planned tracks had a smoother surface then more people (e.g. elderly American tourists perhaps) might want to give it a go.

Some people (given their age and fitness) might not like the weight or the drag of bikes more suited to these trails.

Besides, what would be the harm in surfacing some of these ?
Smoother than the ocrt? are you serious? if it were smoother than ocrt, then the only bikes it would suit are roadies, and commuters on slicks. It would also be prohibitivly expensive to both build and maintain. The OCRT is exactly what you seem to be argueing for (able to be used be the largest majority of people on the largest majority of bikes of all fitness levels).

Any bike shop will tell you that Ma and Pa and kids bikes are their bread and butter, MTB and Roadie are minority. So in reality, any trail aimed at hitting the "majority" of cyclists will be neither a MTB track nor a paved cycleway - it will be somewhere closer to the paved than the MTB end of the spectrum though. Hence everyone sayin the OCRT is just what we are after.

Every reputable source of information on expectations of users of this type of facility give "getting out there" and "experiencing the outdoors and nature" as the prime motivators. A paved surface detracts from this (admittedly this is a percieved detraction in the eyes of the users) whereas a compacted aggrigate is seen as 'natural' and enhances it.

RJM wrote:
thorg wrote:
RJM wrote:Sadly perhaps none of this is going to generate the expected tourism income. These cycleways are based around the minority sport of mountain biking rather than opening them up to all cyclists. If these were paved (in whatever surface) then you would get the roadies from Australia, you would get the older America tourists, would would even get locals who can only afford the warehouse bikes that are not designed for off road use. You could then have turn offs on the routes for the serious MTBers where need be. You could even get those sentenced to Community Service to maintain the cycleways. If you got DOC to plant some trees next to the routes and set up conservation islands around them you could even reduce our issues with the Kyoto Accord. Sorry but I can't help feeling we are missing a great opportunity here ? :(
you seem to be suggesting the cycleways be bsaed around the minority sport of road cycling :eh:

I thought they (they being the 7 so far identified) were based around things like the rail trail - where mountain bikes, tourers, commuters, kids, and even roadies (perhaps with a bit of tread on their tyres) were the target market?


You are such a moron - but I knew a clown like you would focus on just one line of my comments and crap on about it !! Road Cycling a minority sport eh - do you know how many came out just to watch the second to last stage of the tour ? Bet you don't !! Anyway have another think about this - think of all the different ages and fitness levels of all possible tourists - and try to focus on the issue here.
your response to my initial comment was pretty harsh dont you think? Seeing as road cycling is as minority as MTB cycling, and it was YOU that made that comment? And the rest of your point (trees and kyoto etc) could equally be applied to a aggrigate as a paved track? I was merely suggesting that what has been proposed actually suited what you said we needed. But you felt it deserved a personal attack on me. well done.


You are quite right - I took out my anger against Scotty for his stupid remarks on you - sorry about that :)
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