How many bottles?

None
2
3%
One
2
3%
Two
14
18%
Behind the seat tri style
2
3%
Camelback
10
13%
Stop HAMMERTIME!
19
24%
Roadies are gay
30
38%
 
Total voters : 79

Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby musket on Sat 6/Nov/10 9:38pm

cruiser wrote:but I have the evidence to back it up :D
cruiser wrote:he's periodising... :D

Oli wrote:So long as it's not the technique of dropping your heels throughout the pedal stroke. ;)


I won't go into the biomechanics or the kinesiology of it here, but will say there is more power, speed and economy in a dorsiflexed ankle.

It's notso much having it fully dropped the whole time, but more about having the mindset of loaded ankle in the entire drive phase, which keeps the thigh and hip in its power zone and eliminates the weak link of the ankle. The up phase is around .3 of a second. I've slo-mo filmed sprinters in start blocks. It takes .2 of a second to drop the heel, and no power happens 'til it is dropped. Not quite the same as cycling, but it indicates where the power is and what may be lost if the heel is up for a big part of the drive phase. Multiply that by pedal strokes per race and it adds up.

That's why if you think heel loaded for the entire cycle, it may just happen ?!?



Sounds like you need to get some more supportive shoes / pedals / set up, if you're needing to do that.
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby cruiser on Sat 6/Nov/10 9:58pm

you are probably right...Might stop my heels hitting shit when I'm MTBing :D

I've spent thousands on podiatrists over the years. But these days My STATS don't justify that kind of attention-to-detail.
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby XCrazy on Sat 6/Nov/10 10:08pm

MTB pedal stability and adjustment does leave a bit to be desired :(
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby Oli on Sat 6/Nov/10 10:32pm

Yeah, I've watched Armstrong's pedalling action once or twice. :D
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby cruiser on Sat 6/Nov/10 11:02pm

Speaking of pedal technique, I came across something last year which looked pretty good. Has anyone got any first hand knowledge of a user. I can see ground clearance being a flaw or something to adjust to. tested really well for max power and endurance.

vista pedals

Effect of a novel pedal design on maximal power output and mechanical
efficiency in well-trained cyclists

Abstract
In this study, we evaluated the effects of a novel pedal design, characterized by a downward and forward shift of the cleat fixing
platform relative to the pedal axle, on maximal power output and mechanical efficiency in 22 well-trained cyclists. Maximal
power output was measured during a series of short (5-s) intermittent sprints on an isokinetic cycle ergometer at cadences
from 40 to 120 rev  min71. Mechanical efficiency was evaluated during a submaximal incremental exercise test on a bicycle
ergometer using continuous _V O2 and _V CO2 measurement. Similar tests with conventional pedals and the novel pedals,
which were mounted on the individual racing bike of the participant, were randomized. Maximal power was greater with novel
pedals than with conventional pedals (between 6.0%, sx¼1.5 at 40 rev  min71 and 1.8%, sx¼0.7 at 120 rev  min71;
P¼0.01). Torque production between crank angles of 608 and 1508 was higher with novel pedals than with conventional
pedals (P¼0.004). The novel pedal design did not affect whole-body _V O2 or _V CO2. Mechanical efficiency was greater with
novel pedals than with conventional pedals (27.2%, sx¼0.9 and 25.1%, sx¼ 0.9% respectively; P¼0.047; effect size¼0.9).
In conclusion, the novel pedals can increase maximal power output and mechanical efficiency in well-trained cyclists.
Keywords: Maximal power, cycling, performance, mechanical efficiency
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby great uncle bulgaria on Sat 6/Nov/10 11:08pm

clarification of nomenclature?
0199210896.dorsiflexion.1.jpg

toe up heel down means dorsi-flexion - if greater than neutral then this is dorsi-flexed
heel up toe down is plantar-flexion - if greater than neutral then this is plantar-flexed
(neutral equals roughly relaxed standing position of ankle)

are you not saying cruiser, that the dorsi-flexed/heel down position at the 12 o'clock position of the stroke is ideal (the other possibility being partially plantar-flexed[toe down] throughout the stroke) with plantar-flexion occurring at 6 o'clock but that to achieve sufficient 12 o'clock dorsi-flexion, the mindset required is to concentrate on keeping the heel down?
The fan like waving of Lance etc is a motion of (dorsi-flexion)toe up heel down at the 12 o'clock through to incomplete plantar-flexion (toe down)in the 6 o'clock position - its just to achieve this it is best to think about keeping heel down until it comes naturally??

Is not the same songbook being sung in slightly different dialects?
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby Oli on Sat 6/Nov/10 11:15pm

That style of pedal has been done before with limited success as the Dura-Ace AX. Anecdotal evidence at the time was that the design prevented ankle flexion to a degree that pros didn't like. And of course just because they are pros doesn't mean they automatically get it right positionally - there are some awful positions in the peloton - but the sheer amount of time they spend in the saddle means that their experience on the whole can't be discounted.
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby great uncle bulgaria on Sat 6/Nov/10 11:18pm

cruiser wrote:Speaking of pedal technique, I came across something last year which looked pretty good. Has anyone got any first hand knowledge of a user. I can see ground clearance being a flaw or something to adjust to. tested really well for max power and endurance.

vista pedals

Effect of a novel pedal design on maximal power output and mechanical
efficiency in well-trained cyclists

Abstract
. . . .


curiouser and curiouser
assuming there was no change in seat position(?) that pedal would put the ankle in a slightly more plantar-flexed position though-out the full circle . . . . begging many questions . . .
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby cruiser on Sat 6/Nov/10 11:24pm

you've got to read the whole journal for it to make sense. Yes there was seat position change.


Re: Lance. Yes he's a machine and a huge public Icon, but it's not valid to say he is fast, therefore his technique is the benchmark. He was afterall very 'physiologically' gifted.
novel_pedal.pdf
one for the geeks.
Downloaded 29 times
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby great uncle bulgaria on Sat 6/Nov/10 11:44pm

cruiser wrote:you've got to read the whole journal for it to make sense. Yes there was seat position change.


Re: Lance. Yes he's a machine and a huge public Icon, but it's not valid to say he is fast, therefore his technique is the benchmark. He was after all very 'physiologically' gifted.


I was saying ineloquently that his (lances) technique was what you were suggesting. However, your thesis is that you or I may need to think 'heel down" to achieve this type of movement (ie same as lances).

I thought other riders had numbers as good as him and better? (correct me if i'm wrong :D )
psychologically gifted moreso??
Last edited by great uncle bulgaria on Sun 7/Nov/10 12:19am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby Oli on Sun 7/Nov/10 12:04am

cruiser wrote:you've got to read the whole journal for it to make sense. Yes there was seat position change.


Re: Lance. Yes he's a machine and a huge public Icon, but it's not valid to say he is fast, therefore his technique is the benchmark. He was afterall very 'physiologically' gifted.


So we can discount all the world's fastest cyclists in favour of these studies? Pretty sure that Lance used any and all possible science to improve his numbers (I'm not even talking about doping...) - famously pedal stroke is one of the things he consciously worked on to remake him after cancer. I'm not saying his technique is benchmark but it's not streets away from the technique of all successful cyclists.

Taking the heels down thing to its logical conclusion, pedals should be located directly under the heel then?
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby Joel on Sun 7/Nov/10 9:09am

the perfect technique is not about being fast as a result... :eh:
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby cruiser on Sun 7/Nov/10 11:59am

Oli wrote:
cruiser wrote:you've got to read the whole journal for it to make sense. Yes there was seat position change.


Re: Lance. Yes he's a machine and a huge public Icon, but it's not valid to say he is fast, therefore his technique is the benchmark. He was afterall very 'physiologically' gifted.


So we can discount all the world's fastest cyclists in favour of these studies? Pretty sure that Lance used any and all possible science to improve his numbers (I'm not even talking about doping...) - famously pedal stroke is one of the things he consciously worked on to remake him after cancer. I'm not saying his technique is benchmark but it's not streets away from the technique of all successful cyclists.

Taking the heels down thing to its logical conclusion, pedals should be located directly under the heel then?


for a one off grunt of power I'd say yes...ala a weightlifting squat on the toes :crazy:

but cycling is endurance so no...that'd take away the elastic energy produced in the ankle. Stretch shortening cycle can give up to half of the power output of a muscle and allow other joints to contribute more efficiently. BUT, the ankle has to be 'loaded' first for this energy to be used...

And yes Joel I agree. this detail is relevant in the ideal world but hardly relevant in the real world where so many other things contribute to being the best.

to be honest I'd rather have conversations about strength work vs pedaling economy, training methods, the pros and cons of cyclic pedaling etc or even how many bidons for Karapoti ?
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby musket on Sun 7/Nov/10 2:50pm

cruiser wrote:
Oli wrote:
cruiser wrote:you've got to read the whole journal for it to make sense. Yes there was seat position change.


Re: Lance. Yes he's a machine and a huge public Icon, but it's not valid to say he is fast, therefore his technique is the benchmark. He was afterall very 'physiologically' gifted.


So we can discount all the world's fastest cyclists in favour of these studies? Pretty sure that Lance used any and all possible science to improve his numbers (I'm not even talking about doping...) - famously pedal stroke is one of the things he consciously worked on to remake him after cancer. I'm not saying his technique is benchmark but it's not streets away from the technique of all successful cyclists.

Taking the heels down thing to its logical conclusion, pedals should be located directly under the heel then?


for a one off grunt of power I'd say yes...ala a weightlifting squat on the toes :crazy:

but cycling is endurance so no...that'd take away the elastic energy produced in the ankle. Stretch shortening cycle can give up to half of the power output of a muscle and allow other joints to contribute more efficiently. BUT, the ankle has to be 'loaded' first for this energy to be used...

And yes Joel I agree. this detail is relevant in the ideal world but hardly relevant in the real world where so many other things contribute to being the best.

to be honest I'd rather have conversations about strength work vs pedaling economy, training methods, the pros and cons of cyclic pedaling etc or even how many bidons for Karapoti ?


I call bullshit, and Kruder and Dorfmeister Syndrome. I'd like to read a more succinct summary of your hypothesis Cruiser, but it seems you keep changing your mind.
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Re: How Many Bottles For Taupo

Postby cruiser on Sun 7/Nov/10 3:13pm

Nothing to do with remixing mate. I have an exam tomorrow and not interested.
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