Nah it's not that ugly, I see the stretch marks as tiger stripes

nagem wrote:So...

When people say "what could possibly go wrong?" do they actually run through all the worst case scenario or not?

Na - isn't the whole point that you skip over the whole devils advocate step, know there might be some risk but ignore it and jump right in?

don't be so serious nageM

The problem with people agreeing with you on this site is they call you stoopid with a funny little picture

wgtngrl wrote:The problem with people agreeing with you on this site is they call you stoopid with a funny little picture

wgtngrl wrote:

Fergie wrote:"you should take this vitamin as insurance against poor diet"

Only if you're not going to end up taking too much of any one micronutrient! You can read all about those in several journals. I'm not going to reference them though

I like journals.
is it wrong I was interested in the post about RPE effect of CE+ drinks? it explains why nageM likes red bull...cause it can't be for the disgusting taste? (or is it she got sucked in by marketing propaganda?)

nagem wrote:I don't even know what double blind means. Does this mean that I have never been double blind?

is a transitional stage from seeing double to blind drunk, I believe. possibly interchangeable.

cruiser wrote::baaa:

wgtngrl wrote:

Fergie wrote:"you should take this vitamin as insurance against poor diet"

Only if you're not going to end up taking too much of any one micronutrient! You can read all about those in several journals. I'm not going to reference them though

I like journals.
is it wrong I was interested in the post about RPE effect of CE+ drinks? it explains why nageM likes red bull...cause it can't be for the disgusting taste? (or is it she got sucked in by marketing propaganda?)

I had a redbull before a short track race once - I was like - woooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Held HUGE intensity for the duration - it was so funny.

I went to the bmx track after red bull and that shit gave me wiiiiings!!

I rest my case..look at all this gullible nonsense. Best fluid replace...was in a lecture by Ien Hellemans..she told us to look at the contents of powerade and the likes and then check some packet fruit juices...result was exactly the same..one you paid 50c a sahet for in a supermarket...the other 6 times the price as it is marketed as a sports drink... gullible, gullible, gullible....all of you hahaha

Ien is taking a Sports Nutrition course I will be doing in the 2nd semester and will be hitting her up about that. David Rowlands suggested that the body can take higher than 60 grams of CHO if at least two or more types of CHO are used (ie dextrose and fructose). Each different type allows for a certain level to enter the muscle cell via different transport systems so using two different types means more is transported into the muscle cell. This worked quite well in the lab but not so well in the field (did tests at Karapoti which inc several Vorbers) where people found the higher concentration drinks hard to stomach.

In a Sports Nutrition lecture last night we had a researcher from Otago in the area of hydration suggest (and this was backed up by Dr Hamish Osbourne a Sports Doc and Dr Jim Cotter a Ex Phys studying hydration and fluid metabolism) that dehydration is not as big a factor on performance as we once thought and athletes are better to drink when thirsty (as opposed to seeing thirst as a sign that you were dehydrated) than risk overloading the body with too much water. One of Dr Osbourne's students was planning on riding the Motutapu this weekend with no fluid or food to test this. Everyone present thought this was one step too far

how concentrated were the drinks to get 60g in? was this an hour? or over the duration? I was of the understanding gastric emptying relied on overall concentraton being no more than 10% 4-8% optimum, although I know glucose is key, but the use of fructose etc allowed more to be converted quickly. Fructose converts to glycogen in the liver, glucose into the bloodstream to the muscles.

Karapoti is max revs for 2:30-3:00 hours, pretty hard to stomach anything in that bloody race.

Gydey - careful not to be a nay-sayer...the world was flat once remember

But I do wonder what effect these drinks have on training adaption...If we accept it's proven we perform better with drinks, do we adapt less long term given the drinks have assisted us in training? is it like having a tailwind?
For example if you gave a rider a fixed session of 60min steady effort at 400w, providing the research is accurate, this is going to be more stressful without supplements, therefore more overload on energy-systems and adaptation may occur? especially since training is alot to do with making energy-systems more effective.

disclaimer: I'd definitely use the energy drinks in a race, and condition for a few sessions before

Does power output in training due to drinking well equal more growth, or should we be focusing on less output but more stress on the system for more growth? haha too much spare time, I'm starting to hypothesise. It's worth a journal publication...Journal of vorb cycle science, any guinea pigs?

Old school lydiard said water only in training, to allow the body to adapt to low fuel.

"that's a pretty crap uneducated comment to make dude"

oh bollocks- i dont know how to operate this internet forum thing.

Sorry your right cruiser that was a pretty crap statement I made -it was non specific and unfairly cast nasturtiums on all those hard working sports scientists out there by tarring them with the same brush as the hard working sports scientists who work for the likes of the new south wales institute of sport and SKINS coming up with ratshit science about the efficacy of their products - However its pretty difficult to tell between the two often – particularly when its all presented with powerfull celebrity endorsements and clever marketing

It's a shame some sports scientists are need a job so much that they don't care about doing crap research or aren't trained enough to know it's rubbish they're producing. I've no doubt that there are excellently trained sports scientists out there doing excellent work.

Just one question - I don't claim any expertise in statistics - but those studies quoted- In the top one at least (the other on had so many numbers it made me go double blind) I understood that with confidence levels overlapped and a p value so high you can't be very confident at all that this is a statistically valid result. But my statistics were so long ago I'm not even sure if i passed . . .


Flynster - here's another $0.02 on fluid and electrolytes science

pre exercsie
2-4 hours prior to race low fat low protein low fibre high GI CHO meal with about 500g of CHO - i enjoy extra salt at this stage which (poor evidence) seems to help with cramp and does in me.
- make sure you're hydrated during the lead up period - 400-600ml of whatever sports drink "on the line" ie within 5 mins of starting - if you can tolerate that-or as much as you can
DURING EXERCISE
less than one hour - if INTENSE - CHO + electrolyte does help - probably
Endurance - CHO and electrolytes but the only real electrolyte that counts is sodium
4-8% CHO (that is 4-8 grams per 100ml roughly) is generally agreed for gastric emptying reasons and the need to get 30-60G CHO per hour into the system (possibly more - up to 90g (if long duration 3+ hours or if backing up (day after a day of hard training racing)
a ratio of 1:1 glucose to fructose seems to be best for fructose absorption which is what you get in sucrose or plain sugar- sucrose is chopped up at the edge of the gut wall and transported >> blood etc. The question is really does the need to chop it up slow down the absorption process relative to taking in glucose and fructose separately and if so are there statistically significant and meaningful advantages to you at the level of performance you are at . . . .
iso or hypo tonic – slightly hypotonic IMHO
As Im not an elite - I back Raro or some other such cruddy sugary drink 1 pkt + salt half a tsp made up into 1.6 - 2 litre - depending on taste (some might not like all that salt) - ive forgotten the calculations now - for most situations. volume depends on losses which ara function of heat, clothing intensity - noting that performance drops rapidly with dehydration in hot conditions and much more slowly in cool condition such that some elite marathon runners will cross the in in excess of 4% dehydrated in cool conditions - dont know about treddly riders?? - certainly hill climbing in cool conditions may be a good time to try dropping a couple of percent of bodyweight

take home message - if its hot - drink lots cos once your dry your gonna be dropped.

salt encourages drinking by raising serum osmolality and triggering thirst mechanism - thus you drink more and earlier and run less risk of dehydration optimal amount/concentration varies and taste determines largely what you can tolerate alot will tolerate 20-30 mmol/litre which is 1/2 tsp (60mmol) in 2-3 litres - Salt could have an effect on performance in longer races via better hydration but little/poor evidence of other electrolytes giving meaningful changes.
Flavour also encourages drinking

Post training
at least 1g/kg (1-1.5g/kg )of body weight CHO as a load asap after training - simple high or very high GI CHO eg plain white bread cf whole meal or wholegrain for example) avoid protein and fat and fibre in this time as they slow gastric emptying and therefore decrease absorption rate of your carbohydrates(CHO)- remember at this statge you are preparing for the next day and the day after etc - repeat this hourly until next normal meal.

fluid aim to get 150% of your losses in ASAP with some salt - if theres no salt - you'll just piddle it all out again- losses - inaccurate but easy calculation pre training weight minus post training weight x 1.5

perfect food for all this - full sugar coke pretzels and lollies - well maybe not perfect . . .

having said all that if baseline day to day nutrition is no good and you're undercarbo' underproteined over fatted etc all this is a bit of a waste of time

and if you don’t have carbon fibre skins on your farked anyway

Noakes gives the example of athletes finishing the Comrades Marathon in SA and tested two groups. Ones who entered the medical tent claiming dehydration related illness and other finishers. Both groups showed the same level of dehydration yet for one group it didn't have an influence on performance. Perhaps there is something else at play. A major concern for a cyclist is getting waterlogged and hitting the hills carrying too much fluid and the psychological effects of either having to carry so much fluid, trying to get so much fluid and trying to eliminate the fluid. Nice if the whole bunch has a pee stop but difficult if they don't and a hassle for women. Another concern is that most research done on dehydration was carried out in unrealistic settings. Subjects warming up for 2 hours in heat without drinking. Of course they will underperform but this is not a real scenario like drawing conclusions from a test to failure. These things don't happen in the real world.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/search/ ... ehydration

the field studies have more of an angle on cramp, heat stroke & collapse stating that in the field we self-govern our temperature well by slowing down and thirst drinking, that's good for a fun or training ride, but competing at max ability maybe best practise is the middle ground, stick with pre-race hydration science as the guidelines and have the over-riding message of "know your own responses and drink for comfort" during an event.

I went through a stage of not being aware of thirst signs. Kids are great at it. Never have to tell a kid to drink, but Id say some adults lose touch with the 'internal feedback', and it doesn't help when we're getting told how to do it from the powerade empire - we lose common sense.

Interesting about the sodium causing over-drinking...good way to get more sales volume...pissing money away. That's why I buy the generic powders, much cheaper and I can dilute to suit. Although if you're a real hardcore you can buy bulk of all sugar types such as fructose, glucose, maltodextrin etc from food manufacture suppliers such as Bronson & Jacobs.