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Joined: Dec 25, 2001 Posts: 34,392 Location: Poundland
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 6:36pm Post subject: The Myth Of Hardwork
I done wrote this in another thread and thought I'd start another thread with it:
Tama wrote:
A persons family has a huge influence over the rest of your life. From financial security, to social skills, to the colour of your skin.
The reason we hear endless bigotted ravings about poor people just having to "work harder" is because people are very much wrapped up in their experience of the world. Being born into an white middle class educated family has given me endless benefits during my life so far. From the way academia came naturally to me to the way my accent, vocabulary and mode of speech allows me to interact seemlessly with shopkeepers, bank managers and policemen to the colour of my skin to the financial security of having parents I can always rely on to catch me if I fall.
And my family has a fraction of the wealth of the upper class in New Zealand. Believe me, I currently live on one of the wealthier streets in Wellington. I grew up with the children of diplomats, lawyers and executives. A wealthy family gives people a massive headstart over the rest of the rabble.
Yes through hard/smart work poor people from improvished backgrounds can make good money and gain wealth but the odds are totally tipped against them and they have to put in exponentially more effort that Jacinthy who had $20,000 put in a trust fund when she was born, went to Samuel Marsden Colliegiate, and was introduced to her personal broker at 16.
Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Posts: 3,749 Location: Trying to slim down in NZ!
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 6:45pm Post subject:
I believe that where you begin life (i.e. your upbringing) has an effect on your outcome. Perhaps not necessarily the wealth of your family.
I was born into a farming family, not highly educated (although I think my parents are clever), which, when I was born was not well off, but were secure. As a result I have had my parents to fall back on if things went bad.
However, social skills are not something that can be taught by wealth or a school classroom, it is something that you learn in your upbringing. Surely this has more effect on the outcome of your life. You learn how to deal with people from this, you learn values and get direction. So perhaps being bought up in a family that is strong in these area's helps more than a wealthy family.
Joined: Sep 04, 2002 Posts: 21,503 Location: Riding the Entertainment Mastodon
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 6:55pm Post subject: Re: The Myth Of Hardwork
Tama wrote:
Discuss
I was going to write a post concerning the same thing. This election is really interesting because there is a clear ideological difference between the two main contenders. On one side you have economic libertarians who believe in the freedom of the market, and that inequalities are justified carte blanch because people work to improve their place in life and ultimately owe their good fortunes to themselves. But as you point out, they are ignoring the role of luck in life. Personally, I am incredibly well off, my prospects are good, and I owe most of this to my particular ability to do something that is valued in academia (that is, talk kcollobs). But I'm not ultimately responsible for these abilities; I can thank genetic fortune and social accident for that. Equally, people less well off than myself, often ultimately owe the nature of their existence to genetic and social fortune. Hence, on the other side are economic socialists, who believe that inequalities are justified only in so far as they benefit the least well off in society, and that it is the least well off that society should be aimed to protect, because in the lottery of life, that is the place that you would least like to end up in. But for the lucky situation you presently find yourself in, the bottom of society is the place you would be. And remember, even if you are presently well off, you could still end up on the esra end of society.
Joined: Oct 19, 2003 Posts: 1,035 Location: CHCH - Not England
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 7:11pm Post subject:
I think alot of a young persons future depends on the morals & traits that is passed on to them by their parents. Obviously a kid whos parents are crack erohw's odds are well stacked up. But, whether you are poor or not is not the major factor I think. It may seem poor kids stay poor, but if you look at the 'nerds' at the school I went to, they were mostly from lower class society. These 'nerds' are now well on their way to high earnings due to the hard work they put in over school/uni days. These nerds parents worked their farms hard - and that rubbed off on their kids. The poor kids who stayed poor and are now working as cleaners at local schools.. well their parents were generally the ones who never had a job, stayed at home on the dole and went in and out of minimum paid jobs.
I'm aint from a family with money, but my parents hard work ethic and using your brain wisely has given me opportunities other people from the same demographic as me could only have dreamed of. I've picked up on that and now myself am quite well off.
I think its all down to maaa and paaa. Sure the loaded stay loaded, but thats always been the case for as long as history goes back.
Joined: Dec 25, 2001 Posts: 34,392 Location: Poundland
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 8:33pm Post subject:
way_downsouth wrote:
However, social skills are not something that can be taught by wealth or a school classroom, it is something that you learn in your upbringing. Surely this has more effect on the outcome of your life. You learn how to deal with people from this, you learn values and get direction. So perhaps being bought up in a family that is strong in these area's helps more than a wealthy family.
Yes, very much so - I can instantly be polite and well spoken with a well rounded vocabulary that can be altered to deal with many different sections of society. However a wealthy family does give you a huge advantage. Look at Dubya Bush - he's the intellectual equivalent of a goldfish, has managed a string of failed business ventures, and now is the President of the most powerful country on the planet.
Dougal wrote:
Take a successful business owner.
Strip them of their money and don't let them talk to anyone they knew previously.
How long before that person again has a successful business?
Do you honestly believe that the wealthy in our society actually run businesses? They use their wealth to generate more wealth, and buy businesses which other people actually run.
Anyway, in your example the person has already learnt many skills about running a business which sets them ahead of our penniless vagrants anyway.
Dougal wrote:
Of course our upbringing influences our lives. But since when has starting behind the mark precluded you from success in a 70 year race?
A tihs upbringing doesn't preclude you from success, but it can make it gnikcuf difficult. It doesn't matter if a race is 70 metres or 70 kilometres, if you starve someone and tie their legs together they are going to have a markedly more difficult time competing against their well fed and unencumbered opponents.
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 8,474 Location: Coasting
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 8:52pm Post subject:
Tama wrote:
Do you honestly believe that the wealthy in our society actually run businesses? They use their wealth to generate more wealth, and buy businesses which other people actually run.
Anyway, in your example the person has already learnt many skills about running a business which sets them ahead of our penniless vagrants anyway.
I guess it depends how you define wealth. The people I know who I would describe as "wealthy" do run their own businesses and employ lots of people in doing so.
All of these people have put in the hard yards, struggling for many years to build their businesses to what they are now.
You do know that business owners are the only people who can be legally paid less than the minimum wage.
I believe that people who were bought up in a mid to high income family EXPECT a mid to high income so go about doing so by educating/ upskilling themselves. Also if people havnt been around opportunistic/entrepeurial type people then there view of life will be reactive and therefore quite different from those that have
fraserb Fixed and Free ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Fast and Easy
Joined: Jun 05, 2003 Posts: 8,483 Location: tauranga. nz
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 8:56pm Post subject:
but why should the poor vagrant that has slogged their guts out to get to a well paid job and /or is working very long hours be punished with taking a 3rd of their income away from them?
the well heeled high class soul that has money spilling from every orifice has lawyers and accountants that can subsantially reduce the amount of Taxes they pay no matter what goverment is in power.
Joined: Dec 25, 2001 Posts: 34,392 Location: Poundland
Posted: Wed 7/Sep/05 9:11pm Post subject:
bugle wrote:
SlackBoy wrote:
And who says to lead a successful life you have to earn wedge loads of money and own a few properties blah blah.
w3rd
kcuf Yeah - I'm beginning to sincerely believe that as a general rule the less you focus on money in your life the happier you become.
Dougal wrote:
You do know that business owners are the only people who can be legally paid less than the minimum wage.
Know it? I'm living it! But see above, financially I'm earning a quarter of what I was last year, but I'm over 4 times happier.
fraserb wrote:
but why should the poor vagrant that has slogged their guts out to get to a well paid job and /or is working very long hours be punished with taking a 3rd of their income away from them?
In some cases it's not a third of their income - it's more - in GST, levies, tariffs, special taxes and lets not forget local rates. It's because in the society we live in we receive lots and lots and lots of services, from the police to roads to people trying to stop people from stealing our fish or dealing with outbreaks of communicable diseases. That is the culture we live in, humans are social creatures and it works.
And I repeat NEW ZEALAND IS NOT OVER-TAXED COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES - people want you to believe otherwise so they can manipulate your behaviour to their own means. This is called propaganda, and it's running rampant from both sides of the political spectrum right now.
fraserb wrote:
the well heeled high class soul that has money spilling from every orifice has lawyers and accountants that can subsantially reduce the amount of Taxes they pay no matter what goverment is in power.
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