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CrustyMTB
Wrecked
Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,694
Location: Back in the Hood
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 Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 7:18pm Post subject: |
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| bugle wrote: | Slightly off topic...
Instead of whinging about all the racialy based governement funded organisations with lots of money to spend Make them your customers
That way we all win! |
Aye! 
On topic... Maori have third World health standards, which is not a good look for a wealthy Nation (which we are) Positive discrimination at Med school is one tactic of addressing this... I'm all for it! 
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 7:21pm Post subject: |
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Some people are fortunate enough to be born into wealthy families, some are fortunate enough to be born Maori.
It's not really a debate you want to wade into.
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CrustyMTB
Wrecked
Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,694
Location: Back in the Hood
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 8:26pm Post subject: |
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| faceplant wrote: | Some people are fortunate enough to be born into wealthy families, some are fortunate enough to be born Maori.
It's not really a debate you want to wade into. |
More people (by proportion) who die under the age of 5 in NZ are maori...
I flatted as a student with 3 med students, 2 white middle class boys and 1 maori working class woman. Nadia got into med school on average grades on the quota (after having been a drop out check out chick who went back to school in her late 20's). She worked harder to pass most things than Alex and Mike, she had a better bedside manner than Alex and Mike. Alex is now working in Aus, Mike I beleive is in the UK. Nadia is a GP in her home town in Northland, now whose education do you think has been a better investment of your (allegedly) overtaxed dollars??!! Now tell me the quota isn't a good thing...
There's more to doctoring (and most professions) than the academic, but that's a whole different kettle of kai moana to wade around in...
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 8:32pm Post subject: |
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You do, of course, realise I'm taking the ssip, right?
...on tax, education and just about every political view I've posted in the past 24 hours.
Gawd, now I realise why JB has so much fun, people are soooooooooo ready to rise to the bait.
Elections are great, nothing more dratered than watching a bunch of adults act like five year olds in the midst of a playground battle.
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 8:34pm Post subject: |
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oh yeah, I do stand by this comment, and I don't intend it as a negative take on the quota system by any means. It's a fact. 
| Quote: | | Some people are fortunate enough to be born into wealthy families, some are fortunate enough to be born Maori. |
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Francis
Thrashed
Joined: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 1,802
Location: Welly town
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 8:55pm Post subject: |
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IMO the issue isn't about whether or not Maori (or whatever other minority group) should receive extra funding for health, education, etc. The debate is about how they should reveive this extra funding. The extra money required to raise education/health levels closer to the NZ average can either be provided via targeted funding of Maori health and education schemes (positive descrimination), or the system can be left to provide education and health services to those who need them most which, considering the Maori population's over representation in a lot of the bad statistics, will obviously mean a largish amount of resources going in to Maori education/health.
I personally consider the later system to be fairer, as it should be cabable of fairly distributing resources to those who need them, without the use of positive descrimination which could lead to situations where non-Maori are refused resources that Maori are given, despite the equal need of the two individuals.
Go ahead call me a bigot, I'm used to it 
That is all I have to say [activate lip zip]
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:01pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...the system can be left to provide education and health services to those who need them most which, considering the Maori population's over representation in a lot of the bad statistics, will obviously mean a largish amount of resources going in to Maori education/health. |
Only problem with that is that you have to wait for the problem to manifest before you can deal with it, and arguably you'd be much better off making sure it doesn't happen in the first place.
Plus it would depend on a higly organised and efficient identifaction system. History tells us that as a general rule these are flawed... well, in education anyway.
Positive descrimination (ugh, I hate that term) allows the government and associated beauracracy to easily say "Oh look! We are doing something for our little brown bro's!", when in reality they're just paying it lip service.
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MattV
Chill'n down with the fire gang
Joined: May 29, 2005
Posts: 9,841
Location: New Plymouth
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:08pm Post subject: |
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| faceplant wrote: | oh yeah, I do stand by this comment, and I don't intend it as a negative take on the quota system by any means. It's a fact.
| Quote: | | Some people are fortunate enough to be born into wealthy families, some are fortunate enough to be born Maori. |
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Thats funny, but true.
If your born in New zealand, your a New Zealander no one is more special then anyone else. All New Zealanders should have the same opportunities made available to them.
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CrustyMTB
Wrecked
Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,694
Location: Back in the Hood
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:09pm Post subject: |
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There is also a PI quota...
The issues are societal and the govt has not much ability to change societal attitudes and prevalent social conditions...
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:11pm Post subject: |
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| CrustyMTB wrote: | There is also a PI quota...
The issues are societal and the govt has not much ability to change societal attitudes and prevalent social conditions... |
Not according to the latest education curriculum drafts...
We're supposed to be teaching 'values' to kids. 
Social engineering anyone? Whatever happened to parents?
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Francis
Thrashed
Joined: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 1,802
Location: Welly town
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:20pm Post subject: |
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| faceplant wrote: | | Quote: | | ...the system can be left to provide education and health services to those who need them most which, considering the Maori population's over representation in a lot of the bad statistics, will obviously mean a largish amount of resources going in to Maori education/health. |
Only problem with that is that you have to wait for the problem to manifest before you can deal with it, and arguably you'd be much better off making sure it doesn't happen in the first place.
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Please explain 
| Quote: | Plus it would depend on a higly organised and efficient identifaction system. History tells us that as a general rule these are flawed... well, in education anyway.
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You mean to identify who needs help?*
*HDC - duh
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Dodgy_Matt
Mangled
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: 8,319
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:21pm Post subject: |
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| faceplant wrote: | | CrustyMTB wrote: | There is also a PI quota...
The issues are societal and the govt has not much ability to change societal attitudes and prevalent social conditions... |
Not according to the latest education curriculum drafts...
We're supposed to be teaching 'values' to kids.
Social engineering anyone? Whatever happened to parents? |
Their too busy with work trying to pay for the kids education?
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:24pm Post subject: |
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To know who to give the money to, they'd have to be a problem first (so they would show up in the 'statistics' you mention), which would then allow them to be identified, and in turn have the money allocated to help them.
Whereby some would argue positive descrimination is a preventative measure which would stop the aforementioned problems happening in the first place.
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Scotty
yeahnah
Joined: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 14,315
Location: Heading South
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:26pm Post subject: |
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| Dodgy_Matt wrote: | | faceplant wrote: | | CrustyMTB wrote: | There is also a PI quota...
The issues are societal and the govt has not much ability to change societal attitudes and prevalent social conditions... |
Not according to the latest education curriculum drafts...
We're supposed to be teaching 'values' to kids.
Social engineering anyone? Whatever happened to parents? |
Their too busy with work trying to pay for the kids education? |
$100 in school fees a year? Unless you're on well below minimum wage or sending your kids to private school that doesn't apply.
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orangecruz
Flogged
Joined: May 09, 2005
Posts: 4,004
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Fri 9/Sep/05 9:27pm Post subject: |
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Well, the whole family is happy again, standing around the PC reading these posts (the family that vorbs together stays together?). We've decided no more politics in this house! Not tonight at least!
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