Joined: Sep 05, 2007 Posts: 1,165 Location: Waiting for the great leap forward
Posted: Mon 8th Sep 9:36am Post subject:
Great.
Stayed up to watch a mint GP, with an excellent finish. Pity Kimi couldn't survive the shambles and keep it on the track to record a finish, although it looked like Hamilton was going to get him anyway. Superb effort by Alonso and Heidfeld to pit for inters and then monster their way through the field and make the time up in 2 laps.
And then...
Wake up this morning to find that Hamilton has been penalised 25 seconds for taking the escape road instead of crashing into the car in front of him, even though he gave him the place back anyway.
It's interesting that when a Ferrari makes an unsafe exit from his pit box and almost takes out another car in a pit lane full of people he gets to write them a cheque for the value of a cheap car, but when a Mclaren doesn't slow down quite enough when giving a place back it costs them 3 championship points.
Add to that Kovalainen being the only one to get a drive though for turning round Webber (which he probably deserved), he wasn't the only one to punt someone off but he was the only one penalised for it.
The sort of political, bulltihs double standards that causes people to lose interest in watching.
It's interesting that when a Ferrari makes an unsafe exit from his pit box and almost takes out another car in a pit lane full of people he gets to write them a cheque for the value of a cheap car
Face value of less than two seats in hospitality.....
Im going to be surprised if they dont overturn their stupid decision.
Look at what happened at Turn 1 on the 2nd lap of the race. Lewis half-spun entering the corner, but kept the engine running and restarted almost without even coming to a stop. One of the ferraris took to the inside and cut the corner, to avoid contact, now why wasn't that car made to yield to Lewis ?
I know it is taking things to extremes, but surely some common sense must prevail here.
Not seen the race yet, just the clip of the chicane moment on the news this morning. Hamilton clearly dropped back, and according to McLaren was 6kmh slower than the Ferrari over the start/finish line. if that's not yielding I would like to see the stewards definition. I thought the FIA had brought in a steward that went to every race to gain some consistency in these matters.
Joined: Feb 06, 2002 Posts: 28,321 Location: doing skiddds
Posted: Mon 8th Sep 1:02pm Post subject:
neels wrote:
Wake up this morning to find that Hamilton has been penalised 25 seconds for taking the escape road instead of crashing into the car in front of him, even though he gave him the place back anyway.
Thats BS... But why was he going to crash into the car in front of him? Was it his fault or the car in front (Kimi?)?
Wake up this morning to find that Hamilton has been penalised 25 seconds for taking the escape road instead of crashing into the car in front of him, even though he gave him the place back anyway.
Thats BS... But why was he going to crash into the car in front of him? Was it his fault or the car in front (Kimi?)?
It was Kimi in the lead, Hamilton ranging up on the outside into a tight 1st gear right-left chicane. They were perfectly wheel-to-wheel even to the naked eye, side by side, both had a bit of tyre smoke braking at the limit. Lewis allowed a car width on the inside for Kimi, but as they went through the corner, Kimi came across the track (they are still side by side)Lewis could easily have stayed on the track on that tline at the speed he was going, but if he didnt take avoiding action by taking to the grass there would have been contact, so he effectively cut the corner, but knew full well that he must yield to let Kimi gain the lead again under the F1 rules, so he just cruised along slowly for the next 100 metres until Kimi had got ahead again as they crossed the start-finish line. IMO he only ever got to a maximum of a half a car length ahead at the start/finish line, maybe slightly less, but as they crossed the start/finish like that, it was game-on again, and they both went hell for leather down the straight to the next corner, Kimi on the inside had the better line to defend the corner, but as he had the jump on Lewis he pulled ahead, then cu across his nose to get the widest angle into the R/H corner, Lewis braked later on a dirty line and still got down the inside to take the race lead through that corner.
Yet the FIA think he didnt yield enough, or that he shouldnt have contested the next corner, Im still not quite sure what the issue is.
Anyway, thats the brief version, I can get way more detailed if you want
Joined: Jun 08, 2003 Posts: 5,052 Location: Wellitrack
Posted: Mon 8th Sep 1:27pm Post subject:
The Red Car Rule.
Planet-F1 wrote:
This wasn't the first stupid mistake the stewards had made during the race weekend. During the GP2 feature race, Bruno Senna's championship challenge virtually came to a halt when he was adjudged to have had an unsafe release from a pit-stop and incurred a drive-though penalty.
Last time out at Valencia, the stewards couldn't come to a decision over Felipe Massa's "unsafe release" and waited till after the race before handing him a small fine.
Senna was leading the GP2 race when he pitted, was released by his pitcrew and because the pitlane was wet incurred wheelspin getting out of his box. As he slithered into pitlane, an approaching car which he would normally have got out in front of, actually passed him by and he had to slot in behind. No contact and certainly no running alongside like Massa had done with Sutil in Valencia.
Senna's pitcrew certainly had no idea that he was going to encounter a whole load of wheelspin as he rejoined, yet still he was penalised. (The only good thing to be said about it was that the stewards didn't pussy around like they did in Valencia and made a decision immediately - even if it was a parc one)
In the F1 race we saw Heikki Kovalainen make a move on Mark Webber that didn't come off. It was poor, it was clumsy and frankly it deserved a penalty - which he duly got. But let's replay the tapes and see how many more passing moves we could argue that for this season. How about Kimi Raikkonen crashing into the back of Adrian Sutil in Monaco...? David Coulthard on about six other cars in six other races...?
And how come you're allowed to cut the chicane so often in Montreal to keep ahead of pursuing cars...?
Exactly. It sucks.
There'll be enough debate about the chicane incident itself, so let's leave that to others. But why wasn't there action taken against Raikkonen for not slowing down when both he and Hamilton came across the waved yellows of the Rosberg incident on Lap 42. If you replay the tapes you see Hamilton slow down for the yellows and then Raikkonen almost hit him because he isn't taking any notice.
Hamilton steers his car off road to avoid Rosberg and then Raikkonen overtakes under waved yellows. Anyone spot a penalty there...? Certainly not the stewards. It's interesting to note that they came up with the Bruno Senna decision within a lap, the Kovalainen decision within a lap, and yet the Hamilton decision to investigate came after the race.
No doubt there will be all kinds of repercussions over this and it's certainly worth Mclaren taking it to appeal. The fact that the most experienced man of all - race director Charlie Whiting - saw nothing wrong with Hamilton's driving tells you all you need to know about the standard of person that acts as a steward
The stewards and Donnelly should now face a charge of bringing the sport into disrepute. Though, come to think of if, it's hard to think of F1 as a sport now.
I presume they expected Hamilton to act as if he had yielded the corner and had fallen in behind Kimi, instead of cut the corner and gone back to the situation going into the corner - ie fighting. Kimi 'wins' the corner by putting Hamilton into the grass, Hamilton should fall in behind as if he backed out of the corner and followed Kimi through.
It is a harsh call, in an area open to interpretation. Ironically, if Hamilton had of chilled out, fallen in behind, he could have won without question when Kimi put himself out. Instead he fought all the way into the corner until it was grass time, then went immediately back into battle mode.
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 362 Location: mostly christchurch
Posted: Mon 8th Sep 2:03pm Post subject:
dented wrote:
happybaboon wrote:
neels wrote:
Wake up this morning to find that Hamilton has been penalised 25 seconds for taking the escape road instead of crashing into the car in front of him, even though he gave him the place back anyway.
Thats BS... But why was he going to crash into the car in front of him? Was it his fault or the car in front (Kimi?)?
It was Kimi in the lead, Hamilton ranging up on the outside into a tight 1st gear right-left chicane. They were perfectly wheel-to-wheel even to the naked eye, side by side, both had a bit of tyre smoke braking at the limit. Lewis allowed a car width on the inside for Kimi, but as they went through the corner, Kimi came across the track (they are still side by side)Lewis could easily have stayed on the track on that tline at the speed he was going, but if he didnt take avoiding action by taking to the grass there would have been contact, so he effectively cut the corner, but knew full well that he must yield to let Kimi gain the lead again under the F1 rules, so he just cruised along slowly for the next 100 metres until Kimi had got ahead again as they crossed the start-finish line. IMO he only ever got to a maximum of a half a car length ahead at the start/finish line, maybe slightly less, but as they crossed the start/finish like that, it was game-on again, and they both went hell for leather down the straight to the next corner, Kimi on the inside had the better line to defend the corner, but as he had the jump on Lewis he pulled ahead, then cu across his nose to get the widest angle into the R/H corner, Lewis braked later on a dirty line and still got down the inside to take the race lead through that corner.
Yet the FIA think he didnt yield enough, or that he shouldnt have contested the next corner, Im still not quite sure what the issue is.
Anyway, thats the brief version, I can get way more detailed if you want
That's pretty good summation dented.
As I saw it Hamilton was left with nowhere to go as Kimi headed for the second (left-hand) apex of the chicane (they went around the right-hand bit side-by-side). Perhaps Hamiltons biggest mistake was re-joining the track in front. If he had slowed enough to let Kimi be ahead as he re-joined it wouldnt have looked so bad as to gun it back onto the track then ever so carefully let Kimi get back in front by the smallest of margins - basically Hamilton let Kimi past only to the extent the nose of the McLaren was level with the rear of the Ferrari when Hamilton attacked again. If he'd given even another foot or 2 it might have made the difference, but then again maybe the FIA (Ferrari Is Advantaged) expected him to roll over and let Kimi have his romantic "4th Spa win on the trot" victory.
It is a harsh call, in an area open to interpretation. Ironically, if Hamilton had of chilled out, fallen in behind, he could have won without question when Kimi put himself out. Instead he fought all the way into the corner until it was grass time, then went immediately back into battle mode.
Yup. I, for one, would prefer to watch a spectacle, where the proponents are always fighting and battling. Not some watered-down procession, where all a driver has to do is defend, because the faster car behind wont want to have a go for fear of being penalised out of the game.
Im going to be surprised if they dont overturn their stupid decision.
Look at what happened at Turn 1 on the 2nd lap of the race. Lewis half-spun entering the corner, but kept the engine running and restarted almost without even coming to a stop. One of the ferraris took to the inside and cut the corner, to avoid contact, now why wasn't that car made to yield to Lewis ?
I know it is taking things to extremes, but surely some common sense must prevail here.
How can you cut turn 1? there's a wall on the inside.
I thought it was an excellent race. Much deserving of post-race controversy.
Im going to be surprised if they dont overturn their stupid decision.
Look at what happened at Turn 1 on the 2nd lap of the race. Lewis half-spun entering the corner, but kept the engine running and restarted almost without even coming to a stop. One of the ferraris took to the inside and cut the corner, to avoid contact, now why wasn't that car made to yield to Lewis ?
I know it is taking things to extremes, but surely some common sense must prevail here.
How can you cut turn 1? there's a wall on the inside.
I thought it was an excellent race. Much deserving of post-race controversy.
Remember, only the best races are.
Good point on Turn 1, Im wrong there.
I dont agree that a race is judged deserving of post-race controversy. What does that mean? Its inconsequential to how good a race is.
Controversy is just that, controversial. Theres nothing wrong with some discussion about it. We all know you're a rampant Ferrari fanboi, hence your lack of comment on the decision.
It is a harsh call, in an area open to interpretation. Ironically, if Hamilton had of chilled out, fallen in behind, he could have won without question when Kimi put himself out. Instead he fought all the way into the corner until it was grass time, then went immediately back into battle mode.
Yup. I, for one, would prefer to watch a spectacle, where the proponents are always fighting and battling. Not some watered-down procession, where all a driver has to do is defend, because the faster car behind wont want to have a go for fear of being penalised out of the game.
Interesting article here. Kind of what I was getting at
Quote:
Type in the words 'Arnoux Villeneuve' into any well known video streaming service and you'll get to watch two drivers battling tooth and nail in a fight that was not for the race win, but the runner-up position.
The cars look dated now, but nearly three decades on the principal is still the same and that is to beat the other guy.
Forward-wind to this weekend and we have seen that trying to win, or indeed even make up ground, really may not be worth the bother after all.
In Valencia Formula One fans were treated to 90 minutes of high speed tedium and they didn’t like it. Lewis Hamilton trailed Felipe Massa to the chequered flag and made no attempt to make a pass for the lead.
With the points system the way it is, there really is little incentive for a driver to risk a great deal to move from second place on track to take the lead. Why risk an accident for two championship points?
This weekend at Spa Francorchamps, we saw some stunning racing both in Formula One and in the GP2 support series.
GP2 Championship leader Georgio Pantano found himself watching the action early on Sunday morning having been disqualified from the Saturday race and banned from taking part in the Sunday affair. His crime? He made a mistake under braking and took out a rival while trying to move through the field.
Sunday afternoon was not so different either.
Lewis Hamilton had the chance to beat Kimi Raikkonen to the chequered flag and he took that decision. It proved a bad decision in hindsight as he found himself penalised by the Stewards and dropped six points as a consequence to championship rival Felipe Massa.
To put that into context, six points is the same for Hamilton as winning the next three Grand Prix on the trot ahead of Massa.
So the answer has to be, don't bother, don't try and make a pass as the chances are, you will lose out in the longer run.
One doubts Hamilton will take that view and it is certain that the legends that were Rene Arnoux and Gilles Villeneuve most certainly would not either. Some will however and as ever, the sport is all the poorer for it.
Is this what we want? Watch the clip, even if you have seen it many times before, and then decide.
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