Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 367 Location: New Zealand, usually Nelson
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 12:43pm Post subject:
Apples for Apples, I agree.....and I should know.
They are both bloody good bikes (actually better than that, they are great bikes).
Both are influenced by the similar riding conditions (Ibis HQ is about 20minutes north of Santa Cruz). One of the guys at Ibis used to work for Santa Cruz. Ibis use Brain Lopes as their full time racer/tester, Santa Cruz use Mark Weir. Weir and Lopes are good friends and have been riding bikes for a looooooong time. Both of them know what they are talking about.
The example I use is this, which is better, Ferrari or Lamborghini? Both make mid-engined supercars, that are made in Italy. Same influence's, differnt outcomes. Some people are Ferrari people others are not.
Personally, I'm not deciding between them, I will run both for the next while....probably until the new Nomad arrives.
So my offer to anyone you thinks they NEED to know the difference, is that you can come to Nelson and ride my Mojo SL or LT2 and compare...or better still, pay me to fly to your location and I'll bring the bikes with me.
They will be as similar in set up as I can get. They will both have RP23 rear shock and Float36's on the front. Both be medium in size too.
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 367 Location: New Zealand, usually Nelson
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 1:22pm Post subject:
Ibis are small.
Basically four people run the company;
Scot Nicol (Started Ibis in the old days with hand-made steal and titanium. Possibly one of the first mountain bikers too).
Hans Heim, General Manager for Santa Cruz for 10 years, before that one of the partners at Bontrager, before that some small company that I have never heard of, i think they make shoes and gloves. Not sure, called Specialized, maybe someone can enlighten me about them.
Tom Morgan is an out sourcing expert (he used to be the Senior Product Development Manager at Giant Bicycle) and Roxy Lo industry designer, more here http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=749
The carbon frames are made in Asia, I don't know if they own the factory there....but I'm pretty sure they invested a lot of time in money in tooling it up. You won't see a Mojo with some other brand sticker on it in a few years time.
The frames are assembled at Ibis (USA) and then get shipped off from there, not sent on mass from Asia.
Ibis are not big people wise, but are big investment and experience wise.
Basically, I like the Mojo, I have been approched by other brands to distribute their bikes in NZ, but usually I just think....not as good as a Santa Cruz. Ibis are as good and are doing something a little differnt from everyone else. Most other people moving to carbon are just copying their current bikes or just think, we can make a lighter bike with carbon.
Ibis are trying to make the best bike and it happens to be made of carbon, so it doesn't have to look like it has normal tubing.
Carbon may or may not be the next big thing in mountain biking, but I remember the time everyone rode steal bike and people were saying that aluminium would never catch on.
Is that enough info?
I shouldn't be posting this in the Santa Cruz forum either, they aren't the same bikes.
ALSO, happy for people to bug me about Ibis and/or Santa Cruz. That's my job, I love the bikes these companies make, they suit NZ's terrain and the people that work at both these companies are crazy about mountain biking and making the best bikes in the world....not making the most amount of bikes or most models etc. etc. bla....
Oh yeah, disclaimer....I am the Santa Cruz and Ibis distributor, just incase someone out there wasn't sure.
Last edited by Count_Stylie on Thu 17th Jul 1:27pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 11,328 Location: Wherever...
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 1:31pm Post subject:
Count_Stylie wrote:
Ibis are as good and are doing something a little differnt from everyone else.
BBZZZZTTTT! No they aren't - in fact they bought not only the rights to use but also the geometry from another firm, i.e. they copied someone else's design and pay a licence fee to do so. You can find the same design on lots of other (cheaper) bikes.
Count_Stylie wrote:
Ibis are trying to make the best bike and it happens to be made of carbon, so it doesn't have to look like it has normal tubing.
BBZZZZTTTT! Bulltihs! They employed someone to do some market research and make it 'look nice' which is why is it made of carbon and has those 'fluid' lines - nothing at all to do with making the best bike - unless you mean one that conforms to US consumer marketing expectations. A good deal of those frame 'features' are structurally redundant material.
Count_Stylie wrote:
Oh yeah, disclaimer....I am the Santa Cruz and Ibis distributor, just incase someone out there wasn't sure.
Meh. Shame on you for believing your own marketing bulltihs. You might want to remember that the Mojo has been well covered by other media. In fact even the name Ibis was purchased from the original crowd after they went bust.
Joined: Nov 13, 2005 Posts: 5,189 Location: Skyway
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 1:52pm Post subject:
orangecruz wrote:
I know I am being completely naive now, so please be patient ... what are the various reasons people prefer NOT to ride carbon?
For me its not the ride as Im sure thats great. Its the living with it. After owning carbon roadys I know you have to be carefull with how you look after them. And a simple crash can write of the frame if it gets cracked. With alloy it will just dent and most likly still be able to be ridden.
Also not keen on the flowy lines of may carbon frames, I think they just do it because they can. Makes them hard to put on bike racks etc
Joined: Dec 25, 2001 Posts: 7,800 Location: Wellytron
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 1:55pm Post subject:
orangecruz wrote:
I know I am being completely naive now, so please be patient ... what are the various reasons people prefer NOT to ride carbon?
A common complaint (not necessarily one held by me) is that it's more likely to fail.
I guess that failure is inevitable in any material where lightness is the driving consideration. I remember the same things being said about aluminium frames back in the early 90s when they were starting to replace steel. Carbon is no more likely to fail, given the correct design and build, than any other material. If this wasn't the case, I don't think that boeing would be building it's new jetliners from it...
The ability to repair carbon frames is obviously pretty limited (compared to say steel or aluminium), but it all comes down to whether you would want to ride a repaired frame afterwards anyway.
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 11,328 Location: Wherever...
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 2:00pm Post subject:
I think a lot of them are historical - early carbon efforts were norpe to cracking, chipping, chemical corrosion in association with metal frame fittings, spontaneous shattering (especially in Roadie applications), and because they were often low volume hand made things there was quite a bit of variation (i.e. poor quality control). None of that really holds true now that so much more is known about how to use it effectively. That said, there is still the perception that it is easy to damage and a frame built to resist that damage feels 'dead'. Some people just don't like the way it looks. Having been around bikes way too long I think I can say that each material (steel, aluminium, carpet fibre) all have their strengths and weaknesses that suit different applications.
Last edited by CaptainCaveman on Thu 17th Jul 2:02pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 2,041 Location: Otumoetai
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 2:00pm Post subject:
CaptainCaveman wrote:
Count_Stylie wrote:
Ibis are as good and are doing something a little differnt from everyone else.
BBZZZZTTTT! No they aren't - in fact they bought not only the rights to use but also the geometry from another firm, i.e. they copied someone else's design and pay a licence fee to do so. You can find the same design on lots of other (cheaper) bikes.
Count_Stylie wrote:
Ibis are trying to make the best bike and it happens to be made of carbon, so it doesn't have to look like it has normal tubing.
BBZZZZTTTT! Bulltihs! They employed someone to do some market research and make it 'look nice' which is why is it made of carbon and has those 'fluid' lines - nothing at all to do with making the best bike - unless you mean one that conforms to US consumer marketing expectations. A good deal of those frame 'features' are structurally redundant material.
Count_Stylie wrote:
Oh yeah, disclaimer....I am the Santa Cruz and Ibis distributor, just incase someone out there wasn't sure.
Meh. Shame on you for believing your own marketing bulltihs. You might want to remember that the Mojo has been well covered by other media. In fact even the name Ibis was purchased from the original crowd after they went bust.
Hey Mr Crankypants, chill mate, easy!
doesnt matter where the name came from does it? and perhaps their definition, and the Counts, and other people's, is different to yours when it comes to determining the 'best' bike.
Now sit back and take some deep breaths - every brand markets themselves, and generally each believes that one is the best. no different here.
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 11,328 Location: Wherever...
Posted: Thu 17th Jul 2:06pm Post subject:
Flyboy wrote:
CaptainCaveman wrote:
Count_Stylie wrote:
Ibis are as good and are doing something a little differnt from everyone else.
BBZZZZTTTT! No they aren't - in fact they bought not only the rights to use but also the geometry from another firm, i.e. they copied someone else's design and pay a licence fee to do so. You can find the same design on lots of other (cheaper) bikes.
Count_Stylie wrote:
Ibis are trying to make the best bike and it happens to be made of carbon, so it doesn't have to look like it has normal tubing.
BBZZZZTTTT! Bulltihs! They employed someone to do some market research and make it 'look nice' which is why is it made of carbon and has those 'fluid' lines - nothing at all to do with making the best bike - unless you mean one that conforms to US consumer marketing expectations. A good deal of those frame 'features' are structurally redundant material.
Count_Stylie wrote:
Oh yeah, disclaimer....I am the Santa Cruz and Ibis distributor, just incase someone out there wasn't sure.
Meh. Shame on you for believing your own marketing bulltihs. You might want to remember that the Mojo has been well covered by other media. In fact even the name Ibis was purchased from the original crowd after they went bust.
Hey Mr Crankypants, chill mate, easy!
doesnt matter where the name came from does it? and perhaps their definition, and the Counts, and other people's, is different to yours when it comes to determining the 'best' bike.
Now sit back and take some deep breaths - every brand markets themselves, and generally each believes that one is the best. no different here.
Hey I'm chill, but I believe people should be fully informed and make their own decisions before handing their cash to Mr Stylie. Don't believe the hype
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