Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby j2hyde on Tue 5/Apr/11 10:20pm

Scotty wrote:
swtchbckr wrote:interesting, and mildly depressing... i for one arent looking forward to the murder of the public service nor the wholesale decimation of our environment nor the sale of our public assets.

Nice emotive language there budday...

You think labour would do anything about the environment? FFS they let cow-cockies run riot for years while they were in power.


Pike river got approval under labour, and its under schedule 4 land. Oh, but wait, wannabe greeny retards have a supposed ideological bias against the so called "conservatives" currently in power so they convienienty forget about stuff like that. You know, cause John Key is out raping endangered spotted kiwi right now. :rolleyes:

Both major parties are just different sides of the same coin. Funny how that happens in a democracy.
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby Simonk on Tue 5/Apr/11 10:34pm

Scotty wrote:
swtchbckr wrote:interesting, and mildly depressing... i for one arent looking forward to the murder of the public service nor the wholesale decimation of our environment nor the sale of our public assets.

Nice emotive language there budday...

You think labour would do anything about the environment? FFS they let cow-cockies run riot for years while they were in power.


Labour generally tend to be a little bit more sensitive to the environment than National. It was Labour who stopped clear felling of native forests and pumped some extra funding into DOC a decade ago. They would have had an effective emissions trading scheme going years ago if it weren't for Peter Dunne. On the other hand, National are watering down the RMA and tried to expand mining further into the DOC estate. And there is a HUGE difference between mining under schedule four land vs mining of schdule four land - go for a walk round the Waihi mine next time you're up that way.

As for the massive generalisation that government is piss-poor at running business, that's a bit of a joke given recent history, surely. If you could put money into a state-owned Kiwirail or private sector TranzRail, which would you choose? How about Meridian Energy vs South Canterbury Finance? Or Solid Energy vs Whitcoulls? There are sharp operators in the public sector (as well as the duds) just like the private sector. I think the extra scrutiny that democracy can put on an SOEs (through the Official Information Act and political debate) can add an extra level of security - if it also holds them back a bit, it's worth it for essential services at least.

I agree with Nick K that the election isn't a forgone conclusion. National will probably poll in the 40s and Labour in the 30s, but what happens with the rest of the vote will decide who governs.
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby znomit on Tue 5/Apr/11 10:48pm

Simonk wrote:I agree with Nick K that the election isn't a forgone conclusion. National will probably poll in the 40s and Labour in the 30s, but what happens with the rest of the vote will decide who governs.


Yeah and if Bill English gets drunk in front of a tape recorder again, or John Key stops smiling then its all on. :D
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby j2hyde on Tue 5/Apr/11 10:52pm

Ummm, the RMA is shit, poorly written legislation and it isn't designed to protect the environment. Theres a reason no other country in the world has their resource management legislation structured like that. DOC estate covers 30% of the country and plenty of that does not have significant conservation value. The fucking carpark at Waihi is schedule 4. It must be some kind of endangered native tarseal, no way should rational people consider digging that up. Yup.

And even if the option was available you can guarantee that given the choice I wouldn't invest my money in any of the Soe's being discussed. If you think they're doing a good job you don't know what a good job looks like. Solid energy or BHP? Tough choice there...
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby RJD on Wed 6/Apr/11 8:13am

great uncle bulgaria wrote:
RJD wrote:Government is usually piss poor at running industry.

The less governing and management the government has to do the better.

maybe so (although the finance industry has clearly shown itself to be less than competent at running itself without strong regulation from government)
government also has other tasks. like looking after the environment, the disadvantaged, the unhealthy, those needing education etc etc
that may include essential infrastructure.

could you please explain to me how we were better off under private telecommunications until the government stepped in and regulated. or how well the market is looking after our national electricity needs?



Ah , the governments job is to regulate. Not to manage.

Government provide the ruleset for industry to work within and this should be geared up to prevent abuse and failings like above.
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby thorg on Wed 6/Apr/11 8:22am

Simonk wrote:Labour generally tend to be a little bit more sensitive to the environment than National. It was Labour who stopped clear felling of native forests and pumped some extra funding into DOC a decade ago.
Don't fall for the green washing. The "extra funding" was an accounting move to make up for the small issue of doc never being funded for capital depreciation (and therefore not being able to replace broken stuff) - so it was a moving of the deck chairs, not an increase in funding. Actual operating, what pays the wages and saves the kiwi/kills the beasties, decreased every year (in real terms) under the lab Gvt. Just like it has under a nat gvt.

same coin, different side.
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby bugle on Wed 6/Apr/11 9:08am

ALCP

Think of the money that could be saved and the tax income that could be generated!
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby great uncle bulgaria on Wed 6/Apr/11 12:16pm

RJD wrote:
great uncle bulgaria wrote:
RJD wrote:Government is usually piss poor at running industry.

The less governing and management the government has to do the better.

maybe so (although the finance industry has clearly shown itself to be less than competent at running itself without strong regulation from government)
government also has other tasks. like looking after the environment, the disadvantaged, the unhealthy, those needing education etc etc
that may include essential infrastructure.

could you please explain to me how we were better off under private telecommunications until the government stepped in and regulated. or how well the market is looking after our national electricity needs?



Ah , the governments job is to regulate. Not to manage.

Government provide the ruleset for industry to work within and this should be geared up to prevent abuse and failings like above.


then industry screams about over regulation - can't have it both ways
maybe we would have been better of just not privatising . . .
if one combines the claimed efficiency of privatising, with the cos of governemental regulation, i wonder if you end up with the total cost of the "inefficient" public service . . .?
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby RJD on Wed 6/Apr/11 12:58pm

of course industry screams about regulations. Why would they want them? They'd just do whatever they wanted without..

Thats why we have government and laws...
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby great uncle bulgaria on Wed 6/Apr/11 1:10pm

an' the beauty is you that can combine the two and have a lovely pubic service that values people and society more* :D
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby CrustyMTB on Wed 6/Apr/11 4:55pm

j2hyde wrote:Ummm, the RMA is shit, poorly written legislation...
wrong, it works better than most people realise, they just don't understand how it works or what it's designed to do.
j2hyde wrote:and it isn't designed to protect the environment.

Correct, it's designed to devolve the balancing of various interests in society to a local level, it does that effectively, but it also means that the process is slow, so that all the different values get weighed and outcome of the process is a compromise so no-one "wins". You just don't like it because it impinges on your particular industry in a manner which is unfavourable.

j2hyde wrote:Theres a reason no other country in the world has their resource management legislation structured like that.
They're either strongly centralised planners like we used to be (UK, France) or are federal states (Aus, Caneddia, the US). Just cos no one else has done it doesn't mean its a bad idea, ACC is a good example.
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby The Padre on Thu 7/Apr/11 8:09am

Well theres billions of dollars worth of product sitting under our soil. We need to start mining. Massive cash injection and times have very much changed.
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby bugle on Thu 7/Apr/11 9:00am

It's a finite resource
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby phunk on Thu 7/Apr/11 9:19am

bugle wrote:It's a finite resource

So we should never use it?
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Re: Election This Year . . ..

Postby pissface on Thu 7/Apr/11 9:23am

The Padre wrote:Well theres billions of dollars worth of product sitting under our soil. We need to start mining. Massive cash injection and times have very much changed.

you're fucking joking, right? times have changed in that we realise fossil fuels are killing the planet, doesn't matter who uses them. great, sell off the future for the sake of some quickbucks. got kids? obviously you don't give a shit what sort of planet they inherit.
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