Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby michael on Thu 4/Jul/13 1:34am

D=H=D wrote:There seems to be a growing culture among road cyclists of excercising rights despite the inherent risks then complaining about it when those risks come to fruition.


This isn't an issue of risk, we are all very aware when we go on the road that there is the risk of getting hurt when a driver doesn't see us, but this is not that situation.

The driver saw the cyclists and decided to drive into them anyway, not until today did I realise there was such fucked up people around.

How about we take the cyclists out of the situation?

Driver is driving dangerously fast along a stretch of road, speeds around a blind corner an is faced with a tree blocking the road. Had he not been speeding he could have stopped, but he is now facing a choice: pull left into a rest area, but run into a person standing looking at the fallen tree, or pull right and stack the car in a ditch. What kind of fucked up human being decides to pull left and hit the person? (and what kind of person then goes and blames it on the person standing there??)
michael
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Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby umog on Thu 4/Jul/13 8:21am

michael on 1:34am



The driver saw the cyclists and decided to drive into them anyway, not until today did I realise there was such fucked up people around.


The driver didn't "fucked up", he got exactly the outcome he planned, i.e. saved his own ass. The fact that he killed someone else, well that is just a by-product of his own selfishness. No matter to the driver. He is fine.

There are such people around.

:(
umog
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Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby znomit on Thu 4/Jul/13 8:47am

The split second descion needs to be "ditch or prison".
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Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby R+P+K on Thu 4/Jul/13 8:56am

umog wrote:
michael on 1:34am



The driver saw the cyclists and decided to drive into them anyway, not until today did I realise there was such fucked up people around.


The driver didn't "fucked up", he got exactly the outcome he planned, i.e. saved his own ass. The fact that he killed someone else, well that is just a by-product of his own selfishness. No matter to the driver. He is fine.

There are such people around.

:(


Collateral damage, as it were.
R+P+K
Member for: 11 years 0 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby dyl on Thu 4/Jul/13 9:39am

Shit man, I keep changing my opinion.

I get what D=H=D is saying and I kinda agree...the guy made a bad call, obviously misjudged how long the group was. Everyone saying that he pulled back in to save his ass...i dont think so. He PROBABLY thought there would be just enough room for the cyclists, him and the oncoming car.
I mean its pretty unlikely he was being that reckless that he was like 'fuck it, I'm going to take out a cyclist if he gets in my way'

tragic accident, the guy will be absolutely gutted knowing hes taken a life

....and then on the otherhand...

How hard is it to wait a few minutes until you are absolutely positive its safe to pass?! Or like someone else said, once into it realise you cant make this overtake, haul on the anchors and drop back in. I hope he does get charged even tho i think it was a genuine accident.

Whats the solution? It guts me that we will probably be having this same discussion in ...3 months...6 months...1 year?

This has put me in a bad mood...his poor poor family :-(
dyl
Member for: 10 years 3 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby Kiwicyclo on Thu 4/Jul/13 10:09am

R+P+K wrote:
umog wrote:
michael on 1:34am



The driver saw the cyclists and decided to drive into them anyway, not until today did I realise there was such fucked up people around.


The driver didn't "fucked up", he got exactly the outcome he planned, i.e. saved his own ass. The fact that he killed someone else, well that is just a by-product of his own selfishness. No matter to the driver. He is fine.

There are such people around.

:(


Collateral damage, as it were.

+ 1 The driver has made a conscious choice to drive into the cyclists (pre-meditated from the moment he chose that option), he should be charged with murder!
Kiwicyclo
"Arguing on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded."
Member for: 10 years 1 month

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby slumdog on Thu 4/Jul/13 11:31am

What would have happened if the driver just continued on his line, but braked hard to a stop?
slumdog
Member for: 10 years 4 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby Klarkash-ton on Thu 4/Jul/13 11:36am

well, I don't believe it's murder.

But it's not an accident. According to the reports he has acknowledged he saw the oncoming traffic.He made certain decisions that put him in the wrong place, that ended up with a death. He is wholly responsible for those decisions, which would seem to make it manslaughter.


is there any history of trying drivers for manslaughter in similar situations (perhaps involveing other cars?)
Klarkash-ton
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Member for: 12 years 3 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby happybaboon on Thu 4/Jul/13 11:41am

Some time back I read the law, and to me (not a lawyer) if you committed a crime intentionally and doing so caused the death of somebody unlawfully it could be called a murder. Of course, that never happens. But perhaps it should.

Fucks sake, overtaking into oncomming traffic? Off with his balls I say.
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Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby UK_Exile on Thu 4/Jul/13 11:42am

slumdog wrote:What would have happened if the driver just continued on his line, but braked hard to a stop?


Head on 'incident' with the oncoming vehicle ?
Injury or death of innocent(s) in the oncoming vehicle ?
Doubt full stop would have been possible as seems the oncoming vehicle was visible at beginning of overtake so chances are neither vehicle would have been able to completely stop before impact.
Braking early and pulling back in behind the cyclists would have been much better choice.
But like most drivers the drivers second decison (after first to overtake) would have been a bit of extra welly, followed by instinctual pull left.
UK_Exile
Member for: 15 years 4 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby umog on Thu 4/Jul/13 12:14pm

dyl wrote:Shit man, I keep changing my opinion.

I get what D=H=D is saying and I kinda agree...the guy made a bad call, obviously misjudged how long the group was. Everyone saying that he pulled back in to save his ass...i dont think so. He PROBABLY thought there would be just enough room for the cyclists, him and the oncoming car.
I mean its pretty unlikely he was being that reckless that he was like 'fuck it, I'm going to take out a cyclist if he gets in my way'

tragic accident, the guy will be absolutely gutted knowing hes taken a life

....and then on the otherhand...

How hard is it to wait a few minutes until you are absolutely positive its safe to pass?! Or like someone else said, once into it realise you cant make this overtake, haul on the anchors and drop back in. I hope he does get charged even tho i think it was a genuine accident.

Whats the solution? It guts me that we will probably be having this same discussion in ...3 months...6 months...1 year?

This has put me in a bad mood...his poor poor family :-(



Maybe I can rechange your opinion.

Something like this happened to me, city traffic. I was in my own lane of a four land road (left). The car to the right of me was faced with hitting a van that was doing a crazy u-turn into their lane. So...the dude drove into my lane, over the top of me. He decided that killing me was a lesser evil than panel damage.

That his how much these car creeps - car nutters, give fuck about us. Less than you could ever imagine.
umog
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Member for: 10 years 6 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby piwakawaka on Thu 4/Jul/13 12:20pm

Given the incriminating statements made by the driver, this is a case of manslaughter, he did not intend for anyone to die but because of his series of actions an innocent person has lost their life, this guy "drives" for a living, if ever there was a case for an example to be made this is it. Maybe, just maybe, if he gets a real punishment, he and others will think twice before pulling out and overtaking. The law is clear, he is at fault, man up, fess up.
piwakawaka
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Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby cruiser on Thu 4/Jul/13 12:25pm

Condolensces to the rider's friends and family - it's sure to be tough times ahead :(

I highly doubt anything was conscious from the driver. He made a poor judgement based on his typical driving experiences, then reacted to the scenario with poor execution and probably self-preservation top of mind - as is a natural instinct for most people. This is without knowing whether he was focused or distracted at the time. He's certainly at fault regardless of whether cyclists were single file or not and should accept the blame and the consequences, for everyone's benefit moving forward.

It will be interesting to see if any new protocols emerge in their group rides. These accidents would certainly make me think twice about certain situations. As Sifter says, rider always comes off worse whoever is at fault - this should guide how we ride, not rights or ideals. Especially since NZ is shaped by a culture that marginalizes cyclists.
cruiser
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Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby UK_Exile on Thu 4/Jul/13 12:25pm

umog wrote:[

Maybe I can rechange your opinion.

Something like this happened to me, city traffic. I was in my own lane of a four land road (left). The car to the right of me was faced with hitting a van that was doing a crazy u-turn into their lane. So...the dude drove into my lane, over the top of me. He decided that killing me was a lesser evil than panel damage.

That his how much these car creeps - car nutters, give fuck about us. Less than you could ever imagine.


I'm absolutely not defending the Hamilton driver as he chose to overtake after knowing there were many additional risks, however in your case did driver chose to move into your lane, or was the dumb U turn so close he reacted on instinct ?
UK_Exile
Member for: 15 years 4 months

Re: 20 Cyclists Hit - Hamilton

Postby R+P+K on Thu 4/Jul/13 12:32pm

slumdog wrote:What would have happened if the driver just continued on his line, but braked hard to a stop?


If he realised he was going into a head-on, then it could be assumed the oncoming car driver did too. Now assuming they are both into self-preservation, they would have both slammed on the brakes.

Given that this didn't happen, I reckon the driver's instinct was to steer away from the oncoming car and hope like hell he's got enough space.
R+P+K
Member for: 11 years 0 months

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