Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby nz_kgb on Tue 31/Mar/09 10:53am

Having been at the scene - you are probably right, any vehicle stopped 90 degrees across the road would have caused an accident.
If there had been an accident (which there was when he did this 3-point turn), cars would have parked (as they did when we got there) further back up the road, not on a blind corner.

Thankfully, the actual jurors went to the scene, unlike the jury on here.
nz_kgb
User avatar
Member for: 10 years 4 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Henry Dorset Case on Tue 31/Mar/09 10:56am

philstar wrote:
Henry Dorset Case wrote:Thats not the way I understood it, if he did turn in front of them then he is clearly in the wrong, if he was already there when they came around the corner then its the motorcyclists fault.


bzzzzzzzzzzt wrong, but thanks for playing.


if there was a car stopped there for some legitimate reason (eg there was traffic backed up from another accident or something) they still would of hit it, therefore they were speeding (even if they were doing less than 100). but it was still a dumb place to do a uturn.[/quote]

your proposition does not support your conclusion.

Plus you are pissing me right off.
Henry Dorset Case
User avatar
"[b]DO THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IN WHAT?[/b]"
Member for: 15 years 6 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby nostromo on Tue 31/Mar/09 11:10am

Scones are ready
nostromo
User avatar
":-("
Member for: 11 years 6 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby neels on Tue 31/Mar/09 11:11am

The charge was dangerous driving causing injury, which in the jury's mind was obviously proven. The motorcyclists not being able to stop could be a mitigating factor in sentencing, but doesn't alter that it was a dangerous place to turn and the action resulted in injury.

The argument of being able to stop in the length of visible road is only reasonable if the police car was already across the road when they sighted it. If the car started to turn after they sighted it, given that some time may have elapsed between when the driver checked for oncoming traffic and checked his mirror and started turning, then they can't be expected to stop. And given that all of this would have taken place in about 4 seconds it's pretty hard to argue that it wasn't dangerous.
neels
User avatar
"I've got opinions, that don't make any sense"
Member for: 10 years 1 month

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Muz on Tue 31/Mar/09 12:06pm

3 point turn on a corner = blatant stupidity.
The cop got what he deserved and I seriously hope this did put a rather bad end to his career - it's cops like this person that we can do without being on the roads.
Don't give me "they were speeding" sh1te either - that's the oldest excuse in the book.
Did the idiot attempt a 3 point turn on a corner ?
Did he trash 2 sports bikes to meet his ticket quota ?

I seriously hope he suffers far more than both the motorcyclists whom he gave:
a) serious injuries to
b) destroyed their bikes
c) acted like a twat
d) tried to get out of it by using his badge

Stupid twat got exactly what he deserved and I'm really glad he did :thumbsup:
Muz
User avatar
Member for: 12 years 11 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Henry Dorset Case on Tue 31/Mar/09 12:08pm

nostromo wrote:Scones are ready


get some butter on them, get the jug on, and set the table Mildred, company's coming.
Henry Dorset Case
User avatar
"[b]DO THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IN WHAT?[/b]"
Member for: 15 years 6 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby RussS on Tue 31/Mar/09 1:00pm

I have been thinking about this ....

The cop and the bikes were both heading the same direction - otherwise how could he have seen that they were speeding and had to do a U turn to give chase??

I will hypothesise that the cop picked up another vehicle heading the other direction on radar and did a U-turn to give chase without actually looking properly for vehicles. He didn't see the grill of a car or a whopping big truck so he assumed it was safe to do the turn.


Possible? - yes
Probable? - maybe

Only the cop himself will know for sure and since he pleaded not guilty and used a weak argument I guess anything is possible.
RussS
User avatar
Member for: 11 years 2 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby nz_kgb on Tue 31/Mar/09 1:06pm

RussS wrote:I have been thinking about this ....

The cop and the bikes were both heading the same direction - otherwise how could he have seen that they were speeding and had to do a U turn to give chase??

I will hypothesise that the cop picked up another vehicle heading the other direction on radar and did a U-turn to give chase without actually looking properly for vehicles. He didn't see the grill of a car or a whopping big truck so he assumed it was safe to do the turn.


Possible? - yes
Probable? - maybe

Only the cop himself will know for sure and since he pleaded not guilty and used a weak argument I guess anything is possible.


The police car was headed back towards Murchison, the two motorbikes that crashed into him were coming from Murchison. The bike that he actually picked up speeding on his radar was travelling away from Murchison (the same direction as the two motorbikes) hence the reason for his three point turn.

You are correct, if he had made this u-turn and the bikes were replaced with a fully-laden truck, the officer would most probably have been hit and the accident much worst - perhaps resulting in death.
nz_kgb
User avatar
Member for: 10 years 4 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby philstar on Tue 31/Mar/09 1:19pm

RussS wrote:I will hypothesise that the cop picked up another vehicle heading the other direction on radar and did a U-turn to give chase without actually looking properly for vehicles. He didn't see the grill of a car or a whopping big truck so he assumed it was safe to do the turn.


the way it has been reported (even by the prosecution ) is that he did a U-turn/3 point turn on a road that had 120m visibility in the direction the bikes came from, the bikes came round the corner to see a car it the process of turning in front of them and could not stop in time.
philstar
User avatar
"misanthropic"
Member for: 11 years 7 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Sickman on Tue 31/Mar/09 11:56pm

As a Westport local I find this case most unfortunate and sad for all involved. I hope everyone involved can get through it and get on with life and just learn from their mistakes/errors of judgement.

nz_kgb where exactly was it?

As a local who has driven the Buller Gorge road many a times, I know just how hazardous this road is and how you have to be fully aware the whole way and need to control your speed (I would handy ever get up to the 100km limit in the area) as you can never tell what lays around the corner/hill ahead (and there are many of them). While in this case it was a police car across the road doing a turn, it could have easily have been: a fallen tree (I have removed 2 laying in my lane during the last 2 years in the gorge); fallen rocks (very very common especially during heavy rainfall when there is little visibility, have also removed a few of these off the road), a hole in the road or the shoulder of the road has given way; or a foreign driver on the wrong side of the road or a driver doing irregular travel movements as tourist do in campers (had one pull straight out 100m in front of me the other without looking, and while probably arguing to his wife about her navigating), slow moving wide trucks; a local going slow in his tractor/pit car; or even some cyclists (tourists or locals riding side by side), or even crashed vehicles in the road.

During the last 2 years I have personally observed two accidents in the Buller Gorge. One being a head-on crash involving two tourist cars with one travelling on the wrong side of the after driving away from a rest area and then meeting head on with the other motorist on a sweeping corner (all 4 occupants were ok thanks to airbags and the tourist driving at a safe speed below the speed limit, only one required hospital treatment). This accident happened at the corner of the Buller Earthquake run paddlers put-in access which is a very hazardous access due to the sweeping off camber corner (so using the paddlers access points as HDC suggest to turn is often not a good choice to turn, but being not local HDC would not know this and neither would have the officer since he was not local as well). The other accident was a bus going too fast around a corner and over correcting and ended up in the drain and hitting a bank sending rocks and the bus back on to the road in front of me cycling from the other direction. The bus driver ended up leaving the bus half way onto the road at dusk on a section of road with less then 100 metres visibility in all directions. I reported this to the police as I cycle past on my return as it was getting almost dark and the bus was not lit up at all and would have caused a serious accident left as it was.

In this case IMHO both parties have made errors of judgement.

The highway patrol officer (who is not a local but from Blenheim, so would not be fully aware of all the hazards and turning areas along this section of road) who has made the unfortunate decision to turn where he has. He has not followed the police manual as quoted in one newspaper article, "The police manual required officers to be prudent and competent drivers and not put other motorists at risk...','There are many times a day when officers make the decision to turn and do not because it is unsafe.' " and in doing his turn has put other road users at risk.
It is up to the jury to decide on the case whether this amounted to 'Dangerous Driving Causing Injury'.
This also raises the question why we are having non local officers doing highway patrol. The problem being is that we do not have enough local police officers available to do it. IMHO we should have more traffic officers and more speed cameras and stop people driving at unsafe speeds putting others at risk (a vehicle is a weapon is and is like a gun, it is only a dangerous weapon to the public when it is used in a dangerous way by the operator). If that means more tickets and more fine revenue I do have not a problem as it makes the roads safer for others and increases public revenue without me being taxed more and hopefully the extra revenue can go into policing which will make the environment I live in safer (HDC may disagree).

The bikers have also made errors of judgement. They have been travelling at a speed in excess of the velocity in which they could stop safely within their visibility distance. This speed may possibly have been less than the speed limit and IMHO should be less than the 100km/hr limit in the Buller Gorge. But they have taken this risk and we all do this each time we drive but some people are more disposed to risk taking than others (way too many motorists travel too fast in the Gorge and they think they get away with it due to the low traffic volumes). The hazard they collided with in this case was a police car turning. The hazard could have easy been any other hazard as already listed.
What would your opinion have been if the bikers had crashed into a couple of cycle tourists cruising along the gorge and caused the death of a cycle tourist due they excessive speed in which they travelling to avoid any hazards within their visibility?

Well my two cents.
Sickman
User avatar
Member for: 8 years 11 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Spokes on Wed 1/Apr/09 7:30am

The cop should have been taught how to do hand brake turns. That would have been faster and he would have been out of the way.

I want jam on my scone please.
Spokes
User avatar
""Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite and furthermore always carry a small snake."--W.C. Fields"
Member for: 11 years 11 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Fraser on Wed 1/Apr/09 8:43am

Doing a 3 point turn on a corner on 2 way road is dangerous. No one expects to have a Holden parked broadside. Sad situation for all concerned really.

On a brighter note the Isle of mann TT is on the 30th of May.
A lovely place that doesn't have speed limits on the open road.
http://www.iomtt.com/
Fraser
User avatar
Member for: 15 years 9 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby businesstime on Wed 1/Apr/09 8:26pm

Sickman wrote:As a Westport local I find this case most unfortunate and sad for all involved. I hope everyone involved can get through it and get on with life and just learn from their mistakes/errors of judgement.

nz_kgb where exactly was it?

As a local who has driven the Buller Gorge road many a times, I know just how hazardous this road is and how you have to be fully aware the whole way and need to control your speed (I would handy ever get up to the 100km limit in the area) as you can never tell what lays around the corner/hill ahead (and there are many of them). While in this case it was a police car across the road doing a turn, it could have easily have been: a fallen tree (I have removed 2 laying in my lane during the last 2 years in the gorge); fallen rocks (very very common especially during heavy rainfall when there is little visibility, have also removed a few of these off the road), a hole in the road or the shoulder of the road has given way; or a foreign driver on the wrong side of the road or a driver doing irregular travel movements as tourist do in campers (had one pull straight out 100m in front of me the other without looking, and while probably arguing to his wife about her navigating), slow moving wide trucks; a local going slow in his tractor/pit car; or even some cyclists (tourists or locals riding side by side), or even crashed vehicles in the road.

During the last 2 years I have personally observed two accidents in the Buller Gorge. One being a head-on crash involving two tourist cars with one travelling on the wrong side of the after driving away from a rest area and then meeting head on with the other motorist on a sweeping corner (all 4 occupants were ok thanks to airbags and the tourist driving at a safe speed below the speed limit, only one required hospital treatment). This accident happened at the corner of the Buller Earthquake run paddlers put-in access which is a very hazardous access due to the sweeping off camber corner (so using the paddlers access points as HDC suggest to turn is often not a good choice to turn, but being not local HDC would not know this and neither would have the officer since he was not local as well). The other accident was a bus going too fast around a corner and over correcting and ended up in the drain and hitting a bank sending rocks and the bus back on to the road in front of me cycling from the other direction. The bus driver ended up leaving the bus half way onto the road at dusk on a section of road with less then 100 metres visibility in all directions. I reported this to the police as I cycle past on my return as it was getting almost dark and the bus was not lit up at all and would have caused a serious accident left as it was.

In this case IMHO both parties have made errors of judgement.

The highway patrol officer (who is not a local but from Blenheim, so would not be fully aware of all the hazards and turning areas along this section of road) who has made the unfortunate decision to turn where he has. He has not followed the police manual as quoted in one newspaper article, "The police manual required officers to be prudent and competent drivers and not put other motorists at risk...','There are many times a day when officers make the decision to turn and do not because it is unsafe.' " and in doing his turn has put other road users at risk.
It is up to the jury to decide on the case whether this amounted to 'Dangerous Driving Causing Injury'.
This also raises the question why we are having non local officers doing highway patrol. The problem being is that we do not have enough local police officers available to do it. IMHO we should have more traffic officers and more speed cameras and stop people driving at unsafe speeds putting others at risk (a vehicle is a weapon is and is like a gun, it is only a dangerous weapon to the public when it is used in a dangerous way by the operator). If that means more tickets and more fine revenue I do have not a problem as it makes the roads safer for others and increases public revenue without me being taxed more and hopefully the extra revenue can go into policing which will make the environment I live in safer (HDC may disagree).

The bikers have also made errors of judgement. They have been travelling at a speed in excess of the velocity in which they could stop safely within their visibility distance. This speed may possibly have been less than the speed limit and IMHO should be less than the 100km/hr limit in the Buller Gorge. But they have taken this risk and we all do this each time we drive but some people are more disposed to risk taking than others (way too many motorists travel too fast in the Gorge and they think they get away with it due to the low traffic volumes). The hazard they collided with in this case was a police car turning. The hazard could have easy been any other hazard as already listed.
What would your opinion have been if the bikers had crashed into a couple of cycle tourists cruising along the gorge and caused the death of a cycle tourist due they excessive speed in which they travelling to avoid any hazards within their visibility?

Well my two cents.


Nicely said.
businesstime
Member for: 9 years 5 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby RJM on Thu 2/Apr/09 5:48am

Nice to hear from a local - beautiful piece of the country and a great ride if you get the chance - rode from Picton to Greymouth over Xmas and found the drivers (except the odd tourist bus who should know better) really good - they have a lot of Milk Tankers down there and those guys were wonderful - perhaps they could give our North Island truckers some lessons.
RJM
Member for: 9 years 0 months

Re: Cop Who Took Out Motorcyclists On Buller Gorge Found Guilty

Postby Sickman on Sun 5/Apr/09 11:39pm

The milk tankers and cement tanks do their best in sharing the road around here.
Sickman
User avatar
Member for: 8 years 11 months

Crime | Motorcycles | Motoring | New Zealand | Regions | Sifting | Upper South Island - Latest Posts

Who is online

74 Users browsing this website: el_booto, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], mudguard and 69 guests

REMEBER TO CLICK THE LINKS WHEN BUYING FROM VORB SUPPORTERS


  • Wiggle
  • Chain Reaction Cycles
  • GT Bicycles
  • Merlin Cycles
  • ProBikeKit
  • Torpedo7
  • Vorb Shop