Postby Tama on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:33pm

Evil Dr Capek wrote:It is up to scientists to decide on the risks of what they are doing; and they did so in the Royal Commission. So shut up and let those informed about this matter make the decisions.

Because scientists are infallible, and aren't influenced by money, or power like normal human beings?

If the dollar is there you'll find scientists "proving" anything - look at all those neato studies which showed that smoking tobacco wasn't good for your health.

My mother is a environmental scientist, she's worked in genetic research and cleaning up the environmental disasters left over by various "scientifically valid" companies when the "safe" processes that they've been using have proven quite the opposite. Strangely enough she thinks the GM moratorium should be extended.
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Postby Bigfoot on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:36pm

Thats a very good point - but there are scientists who dont suck. Im assuming your mum is one, many of the people I work with are also. Thats the dodgy part about science being funded by business. Thats why Im a big supporter of Universities (for the most part they seem to do good work, and dont care about the outcomes, be them positive or negative)
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Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:40pm

Tama wrote:Because scientists are infallible, and aren't influenced by money, or power like normal human beings?


You are putting words in my mouth. I did not make any claims about fallibility.

All I'm saying is that we had a Royal Commission on GE. Just because the process didn't go your way is no reason to suddenly ditch the process. I'm not saying anything more about this.
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Postby Bigfoot on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:42pm

Tama - whats it like knowing at least 14 people think you should run the country?
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Postby happybaboon on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:44pm

http://www.policy.net.nz/sr-public.shtml

http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/policy4758.html

We don't appear to be all that anti-science.



I support genetic technology when developed in an appropriate manner (by a publically funded institution, not a business) and kept in the lab. This allows for the advancement of knowledge and for the development of medical treatments from genetic engineering while preserving NZ's GE-free conditions when it comes to food crops, which makes economic sense.

GE-free food is worth loads more than GE food because it is desirable by a huge number of people, and it is very very scarce. If we produce GE-free food in New Zealand, then we will be able to sell it for much more than we will be able to sell GE crops for because they'll be similar to the food that everyone else is producing.

If it turns out that this route was the wrong one to follow in a few years time then it's no big deal - We can plant GE crops at any time we want.

If, however, it turns out that it would have been the right path to follow after having planted GE crops for years then there is no way we can remove all GE organisms from our environment and start calling our produce 'GE-free' again.
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Postby happybaboon on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:46pm

Tama wrote:
Evil Dr Capek wrote:It is up to scientists to decide on the risks of what they are doing; and they did so in the Royal Commission. So shut up and let those informed about this matter make the decisions.

Because scientists are infallible, and aren't influenced by money, or power like normal human beings?


It's lines like this which made Tama the obvious choice for our next PM :D
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Postby Tama on Wed 29/Oct/03 4:55pm

Evil Dr Capek wrote:You are putting words in my mouth. I did not make any claims about fallibility.
I'm so naughty :satan:

Evil Dr Capek wrote:All I'm saying is that we had a Royal Commission on GE. Just because the process didn't go your way is no reason to suddenly ditch the process. I'm not saying anything more about this.
And I'm expressing cynicism about the said process - not so much because it didn't go my way, although that is a natural human reaction. My cynicism stems from the approach of the current Labour government to the whole GE issue - there has been a marked lack of rational debate from either side (I'm sure I've said that before in a thread many months ago.)

I'm particularly wary of an issue such as Genetic Engineering which is obviously particularly complex and fraught recieving such a seemingly unbalanced big thumbs up from the government. When a group of people in power effectively say "shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, we're making the decision anyway" instead of offering rational arguments then it does make you wonder. Has anyone else felt patronised by the governments angle on the GE debate?
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Postby red ribbon roast on Wed 29/Oct/03 5:04pm

Tama wrote:My cynicism stems from the approach of the current Labour government to the whole GE issue - there has been a marked lack of rational debate from either side (I'm sure I've said that before in a thread many months ago.)
Has anyone else felt patronised by the governments angle on the GE debate?


Important to note that 92 MPs (includes Labour, National, ACT etc) supported lifting the Moratorium Vs 24 against (Greens and NZ First I think).

This multilateral support explains the less than rigorous debate.
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Postby Henry Dorset Case on Wed 29/Oct/03 5:08pm

Bigfoot wrote: Regular embryos are essentially clones of the 2 parents,


bzzzzt wrong

but thanks for playing.

I have to pull you on that in case it gets promulgated further among our impressionable yoof.

cloning is the asexual replication of an existing genome. (not sure if thats the term, but an existing organism...)

sexual reproduction is the lottery of combining in a randomish way two existing genomes.

If you were correct, me, and my two brothers 9and my sister :crazy: ) would have exactly the same DNA, which is of course not true.

I do think you are on the right track with some of your other points though.

:)
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Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Wed 29/Oct/03 5:15pm

red ribbon roast wrote:Important to note that 92 MPs (includes Labour, National, ACT etc) supported lifting the Moratorium Vs 24 against (Greens and NZ First I think).

This multilateral support explains the less than rigorous debate.


Nice point.

Also, the Royal Commissions submission is here along with some responses. Perhaps everybody should sit down and read this before we continue this debate. :D

http://www.rsnz.org/news/gene/

When I said I wasn't going to say anything else I obviously lied. :eh:
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Postby happybaboon on Wed 29/Oct/03 5:21pm

Evil Dr Capek wrote:When I said I wasn't going to say anything else I obviously lied. :eh:


This is a political debate so lies are fair play - Just look at W's explaination of the 'Mission Accomplished' banner :eh:

I have no answer as to why all the political parties supported lifting the moratorium. Especially considering how most NZers wanted it extended (or, at very least, wanted more consideration of that possibility).

We'll find out in about a year whether or not lifting the moratorium was the right thing to do.
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Postby Bigfoot on Wed 29/Oct/03 9:03pm

Henry Dorset Case wrote:
Bigfoot wrote: Regular embryos are essentially clones of the 2 parents,


bzzzzt wrong

but thanks for playing.

I have to pull you on that in case it gets promulgated further among our impressionable yoof.

cloning is the asexual replication of an existing genome. (not sure if thats the term, but an existing organism...)

sexual reproduction is the lottery of combining in a randomish way two existing genomes.

If you were correct, me, and my two brothers 9and my sister :crazy: ) would have exactly the same DNA, which is of course not true.

I do think you are on the right track with some of your other points though.

:)


True - I said essentially. I was just getting at, even with cloning, there are mutations involved. YOu and your brother have the closest DNA (in your case). I was trying to generalize to make a point - wahts relay so bad about cloning?

I didnt feel like getting uber-technical incase lots of people didnt understand.
Last edited by Bigfoot on Wed 29/Oct/03 9:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby E Dogg Capizzle on Wed 29/Oct/03 9:05pm

Bigfoot wrote: wahts relay so bad about cloning?


Don't you know anything?! The Emperor Palpatine is going to take over the federation with his clone army of Temuera Morrison's, that's what's wrong! :cry:
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Postby Bigfoot on Wed 29/Oct/03 9:08pm

bwaahahaa :D
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